Sunday, July 17, 2011

Sigh...

Sometimes life is just hard. And sometimes I feel like I make it hard for myself. Or something like that.

Anyway, a few weeks ago I had a gazillion thoughts on my mind that I had wanted to write about. Then Henry wanted to spend time with me, and pulled me away from my addiction. And the next morning when I turned on the computer, it was dead. A week past before we had a new one, and by then my thoughts had probably grown exponentially to several gazillions - at which point it seemed impossible to even scratch the surface of all the things  I wanted to get "out on paper" (read: vast cyper space).

But now I do want to write down my thoughts, except they are still so over the place I don't know where to start. And, I committed to write a personal essay on the topic of "Women in Transition" that needs to be done by Friday, and it still needs a lot of work (it's pretty crappy so far I think, and I'm embarrassed if it stays horrible like this), thus maybe I should focus my energies elsewhere. However, we had this lovely RS lesson today that was so enjoyable for me that I actually (for the first time, I think) left RS. I just couldn't sit through it today.

And maybe that's where I should start. Today. Today was a good day. I went to Church and I wanted to feel the Spirit. I've been trying to focus on what matters, and felt all positive. We made it to Church on time, even. I had my scriptures with me. I was ready. Sacrament meeting was nice. We had some great talks about coming unto Christ. I particularly loved the spontaneous testimony given by a lady I've been assigned to visit teach (and who probably thinks I'm a freak by now because when I went to visit her for the first time, I just "fell in love" - as in I just felt such appreciation for her right away and so connected...it's been a while I've felt that way). We also had a great Sunday School lesson (also taught by the same visiting teachee lady). Then came RS. I'll admit that I'm not a fan of the teacher. She's a very kind, fun person. It's nothing personal really, because really, she is a great girl. But, when it comes down to teaching in Church - well, just about everything rubs me the wrong way. It's hard for me to move past a lot of things that I feel are very cheesy or simplistic/naive or, well, plain wrong. And yet, she's so kind - even when I raise my hand to make another annoying comment that is 20 minutes long and goes against half of what she just said, she listens carefully and kindly and finds something positive about my comment. It's almost maddening to a wicked soul like me.

Ok, now why am I even mentioning all this. I don't know actually. I really hated today's lesson. But, the main reason why I found it so unsavory is really because of all the gazillion thoughts I've thought about in the last few months. A few years ago, my best friend left the Church. It was a real shock for me. I remember her long letter she wrote, explaining her choice. It was mainly for Church history reasons and how she felt she simply couldn't believe certain things anymore (like Joseph Smith being a prophet etc.). I was  incredibly sad. This happened shortly after a family member also deciding to leave the Church (which was a choice based on having unsuccessfully fought homosexuality for a long time, and this family member now wanting to find a partner). So, it was a rough time for me, and I recall getting pretty frustrated with my friend. The way I reacted to her, I think damaged our relationship beyond repair, and I'm sad to this day how our paths have separated. Recently, I feel like I've had some sort of, urm, deja vu - similar situations coming up again in my life. In the last little while, I've heard from quite a few friends and acquaintances who have left the Church or who are really struggling.

Often times, when someone leaves the Church, or struggles, we chalk it up to a weak testimony or having sinned, or being prideful or whatever. But, with all my friends, they left because they studied Church history, and it simply killed whatever faith they had. Maybe that's what a weak testimony is. However, I have felt that truth should always withstand investigation, and a testimony that was build on truth would not crumble when its basis was carefully investigated. So, this time around, I didn't just want to lash out at my friends. I wanted to understand. I'd like to think that that's a good thing. And I think in many ways it has been, but it's made my life harder in many ways as well.

In the last little while, I have tried to really learn more about our Church's history. I've read several historic books about Joseph Smith and also about Emma Smith. I've read a lot of different blogs discussing current Mormon thought. And it's really made me think. Some of the thoughts that I've come across have always been things I've thought/felt. Some have newly developed. And some things I'm just not sure about. In a way I feel like my own testimony is under reconstruction. I'm re-thinking, re-learning, re-examining and re-gaining. Occasionally I feel like drift wood, rubbed thin and washed ashore some strange place. In other ways though I feel like my testimony or relationship with God is undergoing a real revival, becoming more alive again, more sincere again, more meaningful, and that seeking the guidance of the Spirit is taking on a whole new role in my life.

What does that all have to do with today? Well, as I've read and learned and thought etc. I've gotten to some place where I feel I'm in a good place. But, it's not the place where the majority of members are. I'm not trying to say I'm right and others are wrong. It's more of a "I'm thinking/believing A and everyone else believes B" sort of thing. The hardest thing for me right now is how I view our Church leaders. Some of the stories I've heard in the last few months have just made it more clear to me than ever how imperfect our leaders are. You may all agree with me that no one is perfect. I'd like to think we all agree on that. But, I mean seriously imperfect. As in "sinning" imperfect, or as in seriously unrighteous counsel or whatever. There are bad bishops. There are bad stake presidents. There are in fact, bad seventies. And with bad, I don't mean evil. I just mean they really mess up sometimes. And, as it goes, I also believe this applies to prophets and apostles. When I read about Joseph Smith and his life, and how, for example, he practiced polygamy for about 10 years before he ever told Emma, I just have a very very very hard time to believe that this was inspired or the will of God. I.just.don't. believe.it. Now, there is a good chance that historic records got something wrong. There could be all kinds of explanations. But, I think it's also very possible that he simply messed up. Why not? There is no Mormon doctrine of prophets being infallible.

You may say, well, they are not infallible, but if they lead us astray, God will remove them. Yep. I'm willing to believe that was well. But how would that removal look like? Death, maybe? Well, Joseph Smith died. And all prophets after him died, too. It's pretty hard to know when a prophet is being removed by God and when his time was simply up, wouldn't you agree? So, I think we simply don't know when a prophet messes up and when he doesn't. The interesting thing to me is that it doesn't really matter. We've been advised and taught in the scriptures and from past prophets that we shouldn't just follow blindly - that we should always get a witness from the Spirit. Yet, these days it seems like all you need to know is that the prophet is called of God, and then you have to seek no further witnesses. That's so bizarre to me.

Anyway, my feelings about believing that the Church leaders aren't perfect was just a starting point of some of my changes. It has expanded to how I view a lot of things we do in Church that is presented as if it's doctrine, that I actually don't believe is doctrine, and that don't even make sense when you think about them more carefully. For example, today's RS lesson was on Family Responsibilities. In no time we were talking about priesthood and women, with the talk about women not having/needing the priesthood because we have babies. Right. I say BS to that because first of all, we have no teachings/scriptures that explain why the men have the priesthood and women don't. We don't really know. Further, we've had Elder Nelson say that priesthood is not gender, and Pres. Hinckely say that women could hold the priesthood if God gave a revelation in regards to that. Considering that at some point blacks couldn't hold the priesthood (for no known reason), and then a revelation was received, it's not illogical to think that maybe women will also hold the priesthood at some point.

Well, some of you may say women already hold the priesthood, or we don't need the priesthood. Sure. I agree with both of those ideas. I don't feel like I need more responsibility. But, I don't understand that if I DO hold the priesthood (which some people believe because of what women do during initiatories in the temple, and what I also believe because in the olden Church days, women actually gave blessing of healing by the laying on of hands, sometimes together with the men! Yes. Did you know that?) then why do the men need to do everything. For example, if we hold the priesthood, why can the RS president not act on her own accord without constant approval from the Bishop? Why can she not choose the next president? Why does it have to be run by a man? If we look at how the Church operates, there isn't much/anything that suggests that women have any sort of priesthood authority on their own other than whatever authority is given by those we officially believe to have the priesthood authority - and that's never a woman. Do women need to have the priesthood? Well, I don't think we NEED to per se. It's not like I'm personally dying for more opportunities to, urm, serve. However, when I think about how awkward it may be for a young woman to answer questions about chastity when talking with an old man you barely know - I think there may be great benefit to women also having the priesthood, or the authority to help the women in their stewardship to repent and change and come unto Christ.

The more I think about these things, the absurder it seems to me at times to think that there is something inherent in the priesthood that women cannot or should not do. The main part of the priesthood is to perform certain ordinances. I'm totally fine with the guys doing that. I don't need to baptize anyone or ordain anyone. I'm also fine with them giving blessings or blessing the sacrament. Really. But, what is it about the priesthood that only men get called as Mission presidents for example, and run the whole mission. The wives always have to join them, and they even get set apart. But, we don't even have a term for what they are other than "the Mission President's Wife". They are there to support their husbands while the husband runs the mission. Why can they  not interview the sister missionaries? Instruct the sisters? Work with the sisters? Be there for the sisters? Why does the "priesthood" have to do all of that? None of those things are direct priesthood responsibilities. They are things women could do just as well. Yet, we don't. It may not matter much. But if you're the one who has to explain embarrassing or very private issues of sexual nature to a man, I bet you'd rather have the mission president's wife in front of you as well.

Anyway, now back to today. We were supposed to talk about Family responsibilities. It could have been a nice lesson. But in no time it was about men having the priesthood and women having babies. And that concept just drives me nuts. Women can only have babies with the help of men. No woman gets pregnant by herself. Men don't need women to get the priesthood. Also, any worthy man can hold the priesthood, but a woman, no matter how righteous, if not married or fertile cannot live out her "priesthood". So, that whole idea is just a bunch of BS to me. It doesn't make sense at all. Further more, as much as I love motherhood, and I love it deeply, and as much as I love being at home with my kids, which is my favorite job I've had so far, our role as women has got to include a little more than bearing children. If the main role for men is to use their priesthood to serve, preside, guide, lead, bless, strengthen, etc. and for women to have children (who will then be guided, taught, presided over, blessed and provided for by the man) it really leaves women with very little that they're actually responsible for other than getting pregnant, having the kids and then feeding them, cleaning up after them and taking care of the home. Now, don't get me wrong - I fully believe that raising children well is the most valuable thing any human being can do. Ever. But, when men can and should do all those things as well, you wonder what you're necessary for other than cooking and cleaning, which is something we rarely seem to expect the men to do. It's very easy to end up feeling as if your "sacred role" is not that of a complete, capable, spiritual being, but simply to be a a little home maker. And even worse, if you're not married, what is your role then? You cannot even have children - your assigned, divine role.

Arghhhhh. Anyway. Ok enough of that. So, we talked about babies and priesthood. And after we talked how sad it is when someone who's a good person, who's happy and productive and living a good life, isn't a member of the Church. And that's when I just wanted to run. I love the gospel. I think the gospel provide hope and light and strength beyond what any human could ever give us. I'm so grateful for having the gospel of Christ in my life. But, I'm so tired of the idea that anyone who isn't Mormon is somehow less happy, or doomed to some horrible fate. Happiness doesn't come from being Mormon. It comes from living the principles of the gospel of Christ. Anyone who lives righteously, will reap those benefits. If we think about all the things that go wrong in this world, I think being sad over someone living a good, honest, righteous life outside the Church shouldn't be cause for weeping. It's reducing those people to nothing but their Church denomination, like nothing else about them matters. It makes me want to rip out my hair. Especially since this weeping and moaning only drives wedges between us and the people we want to join us. No one wants to join a Church when you don't feel fully loved and accepted and valued beforehand the way you are. And lastly, why even worry so much. Life is long. We don't know what the future will bring? We don't know how God will judge things in the next life or who will join the Church in the next life, when we have a better understanding. This black and white thinking of whoever doesn't join in this life, on purpose, is doomed in the next, is just silly to me. Life is so extremely complex. We're so influenced by  our experiences, culture, etc. Who are we to judge who really had a good chance at understanding the gospel and who didn't? It's absurd.

Ok, I'm sure that at this point you noticed I'm ranting. Let me say this. I love the gospel of Christ. I really do. I also believe in the organization of the Church. I believe in prophets, and apostles. I believe in revelation, and inspiration. I believe in priesthood power. However, I don't believe that everything we hear from the pulpit (no matter who is speaking) is the word of God. I think we always need to rely on the Spirit to help us know what is true and what is not, and what matters for us, and what does not. I believe we have a lot of cultural influences in the Church. And I struggle with that. Very much. (Cultural, as in thinking that women who work are evil, even though a) almost all stay-at-home-moms I know have jobs on the side and b) it's only in the Western world that we can even entertain the idea of having kids and one parent not working - unfathomable in most other parts of the world).

I'm tired. This got so long already. And I have only talked about half of what I wanted to talk about. I haven't even ranted yet about 4th of July testimony meeting. I guess I have to save that for another day.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't me. I realize that I need to be more humble. And I most definitely need to work more on loving others in my ward right now unconditionally, and not be annoyed by what I consider naivete and ignorance. Who am I to judge or to think that I know "better" than someone else. I am where I am spiritually. And others are somewhere else. That's ok. I guess it just gets a bit lonely and frustrating when you are the only one who thinks a certain way, and even more when it sometimes feels like you're borderline apostate or something just because you don't hold some of the weird, traditional, undoctrinal views most other Mormons hold.

Therefore, sometimes I wish I was like everyone else, conforming, believing, unquestioning, and authority respecting. But I'm not. And I've always had an issue with authority. And I've always been the odd one out, I guess. It sucks at times, but hopefully there is a purpose to having people like me in the world...

14 comments:

Renee (and Eric) said...

I hear you. And there is so much to say, but I'm in the middle of packing us up again and it's past midnight of what will be a long week. Is there ever enough time for it all? In the packing, I discovered some kind of journal/essay that I had written in Prof. Michelle Stotts class in response to Brecht's Galileo. It was in a very similar vein to what you just expressed. And she had written a very lovely response to my thoughts. It was good to know that there can be safe places to voice and discover. Sometimes I am at odds with my questioning mind. On the one hand it is glorious to find layers upon layers of the world through thinking and discussing and learning. I check in on your blog sometimes just to get myself going again. On the other hand, sometimes I also wish I just thought of life in simple straight forward terms--like it would be easier not to always be examining and questioning. Faith to me is ever changing and evolving, but even when I think every assumption, belief, idea I have may be all just silly and made up, I find myself back at the core and would never want my life without church, Christ and a constant search for Heavenly guidance, direction and a desire to do better and be better. It's not in me to live a life without purpose or meaning or complexity.

Amen to the part about good people. Sometimes missionary-themed things just make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Especially when there is the assumption that other people without the church cannot possibly be happy. I've met a good many happy, self-fulfilled, good, hard-working, making the world better kind of people with many different kinds of religious views.

I think you have found something really good in all of your musings. You're really on to something. I really enjoyed reading your perspective. I want to come back to this and read it again. It really clicked the way you put where you are at with things.

I missed RS today. But my husband was as astounded by the discussion in his Elder's Quorum as you were in your RS. Just plain crazy talk sometimes!

In the meantime, your four month old is absolutely adorable. We're also enjoying our little four month old. I still find myself staring at her caught up in the sheer miracle of her existence and the joy she brings us.

Thanks for sharing!

Laura said...

Lots of ideas here. I really like your idea that women should be over the women in the mission field. How do we make that happen? I wish our church wasn't so top down. You have a fabulous idea and it will never be heard unless Henry gets into the first presidency. I think change in our church will happen, but I also think it will take years. The change comes slow because of the organization of it. All those old men must die for younger people to come up the ranks that maybe think a little different because of how we were raised to think not just follow. Anyway, what a brave post. I wish I could respond to it all. I am not that brave.

Talyn said...

In one of my wards, the one we were in together, I was frustrated by RS discussions forever degenerating into an "It's because men are less righteous than women" discussion every time the priesthood was mentioned. Seems like the parable of the talents is pretty obviously against this idea. I finally came across a quote from an apostle that basically said, we don't know why women don't hold the priesthood and there is no reason to speculate. My personal interpretation of that is that, when we speculate about it, we're mostly *wrong*. (Kind of how those who speculated about why blacks didn't have the priesthood [McConkie I think] eventually said to forget what he had said, because now there was more revelation.) I have got to go digging for the quote again, because it became a tool I used every time the topic came up. I'd just read the quote and most of the time the teacher took the hint and moved on to what the lesson was supposed to be about.

I don't mean this to say we shouldn't seek answers to questions about why things are when we don't have an apostolic or scriptural source. I just don't think Relief Society is the place do do it. Your personal study is the place to do it. Like you said we're not all in the same place spiritually, and we're not all ready for all of the answers. We're mostly not ready for the answers we haven't sought personally.

This is one of the main reasons I love being in Primary. I love primary so much. We just teach simple truths and then discuss how the children can live them. I love primary.

Can I just share another of my pet peeves? When people give Adam a whiny 4 year old voice and pretend he said, "Eve made me do it." That's not what he said, and I think we do a great disservice to our first parents when we deteriorate their monumental choice into childishness, (The serpent made me do it! I had no part in this!) and when we refuse to give them credit for taking responsibility for their actions. They both said, "...and I did eat."

Whew. Good thing you have a blog Fran, or where would I say this stuff. :)

Henry said...

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

Renee, I hear ya. It really does seem like faith is a journey - it just keeps evolving. Which is probably a good thing.

Laura, yes, I think with each new generation, we'll see some changes.

Talyn, the whole "men are wicked and that's why they need the priesthood" or anything like unto it, really bothers me, too. It's like we cannot wrap our minds around why something is the way it is, so we come up with the strangest explanations. It actually made me crazy when on Sunday one sister, basically in one breath first explained how the guys wouldn't get anything done anyway without us women - priesthood or no - the only reason they were as good as they were was because we women pushed them there, and then said almost right after how amazing men were for all the things they did with the priesthood. I was so stumped - I mean, either men are these vile creatures who depend on the glory of their women to achieve anything or they are these saintly beings who hold the priesthood and we humbly surrender to their every word...Blech. Can we just get real and see each other the way we are, as equals, equally capable to be spiritual and equally capable to be carnal. And that men and women need each other the same to improve and become better. Yikes.

I can see how primary would be great to avoid these kind of discussions.

I do wish though that at times there would be a more inquisitive spirit. I think we should always try to understand and learn what is going on - even when there is apostolic words on the issue. I think learning to learn by the spirit is one of the most important things for us to learn. I don't like speculating in Sunday meetings though. It really isn't quite the right place for speculations on tangible gospel elements.

nevadanista said...

I haven't been a creepy blog stalker in a very long time, but some how I found myself reading your blog tonight and now I'm actually leaving a comment, which means I'm even creepier than I thought.

But I just wanted to say that I loved your thoughts in this post and thank goodness for people like you in this world. My husband went through a church history thing over several years and has lost his testimony. So much of what you said resonated with me. However, for me it's been what some people call 'a growth opportunity'. It didn't really feel like that's what it was at the time, but that's how it turned out for me. My testimony went through all kinds of changes, and I think I'm the better for it, even though it was like going to hell and back.

Thanks for ranting, and please know you're not the only one to ever walk out on a RS lesson given by a really super nice person :)

Hope that wasn't all too creepy.

Marie M. said...

Good post. I actually taught this lesson last week and it didn't turn into stereotypes, although I refused to write down on the board that a woman should be pleasant....ah ah
But we talked about all the christlike attributes both spouses should have. When we analyzed the manual text, we saw no difference between the attributes father and mother should have. And we concluded our roles aren't different, and anybody, married or not should work on those characteristics and be responsible for the welfare of loved ones. So...
Well, I agree with things you wrote, and I'm going through my own mid-life crisis :) I shocked the President when I asked her " Why in the world do we need to ask permission from the Bishop to do this activity?" . Well, I need to sleep.

Franziska Patterson said...

Nevadanista: I'd rather have someone speak up than silently stalk. I feel flattered though that you were stalking at all. Hahaha. Anyway, I also feel like this is a strengthening experience overall. It just makes me want to go crazy at times inbetween.

Marie, I love you!

nevadanista said...

Btw, I meant I haven't been blog stalking in general for a while. Probably because I haven't been blogging, but in any case, Fiday was my first time reading your blog. I enjoyed it so much that I came out of lurkdom right away haha. I like the way you express yourself.

Troy said...

I don't think a woman would need to hold the priesthood to "help the sisters in her stewardshiop repent and change and come unto Christ" as you say. The work that visiting teachers do, the work that RS sisters do IS helping people to repent and change. The priesthood isn't required for that. I've never understood this desire for women to hold the priesthood. My holding the priesthood serves no benefit to me. I gain nothing from it. It's only meant to serve others. So in that aspect it doesn't matter who holds it, only that somebody does.

As for why the RS can't do their own thing without asking for the bishop's permission all the time - well, the elder's quorum can't just do their own thing either. Nor do I think they should. I don't see much benefit in questioning the organization that the Lord has established. Imagine what would become of the church if their was no "top down" authority and direction. Wishing that the church wasn't so top down?? Really, Laura? Carry it out to its conclusion and what would happen is another apostasy. I'm baffled that some of these points of doctrine and the Lord's way are being disputed.

Lastly, I'm a little disturbed by the notion that Joseph Smith's death was a way for God to remove him from leadership for past mistakes. You don't blatantly endorse the idea but even floating it out there is strange to me. Joseph Smith returned to direct Brigham Young on occasion. Does this sound like something that would have been permitted if Joseph Smith had fallen from grace? Regardless, I can find nothing positive at all in even entertaining the idea that Joseph Smith had made fatal mistakes. Answers to concerns and questions that one has about Joseph Smith or other church leaders are not to be found on blog sites and in books. In many cases these would lead one to disbelieve on the prophet and slowly discredit his work. I'd be very cautious about continuing to read these things. But that's just me.

Troy

Franziska Patterson said...

Troy, first of all, who says that answers are being sought on blogs and books about the prophets? I haven't been trying to get answers from blogs, but I have read Church history. Having done that has lead me to the conclusion that either the gospel as I've been taught isn't true (which I'm not inclined to believe) or that prophets make mistakes. It cannot be both in my mind. There are too many contradictions for that to make sense. What are you suggesting though? To not read and learn about history in case it may contradict with the current views I hold? Wow, really? Are you saying it's better to believe something even if it's not true, than to learn the truth, and build your testimony based on truth? If the gospel/Church is true, there is nothing to be afraid of. Answers will be found, even when things don't make sense right away. But to suggest it's better to not go read/learn/look because it may weaken your beliefs - ewwww. I'm surprised you even suggest that Troy.

However, I don't know why you have to conclude that God removing a prophet equals falling from grace? Why is it not possible for someone to simply be 'released' so to speak from leading, but still allowed to help? Maybe God called him home and gave him a good chewing out. Maybe when Joseph appeared after his death (I haven't heard of that by the way) it was ok to do so because others were guiding him on the other side. Who knows? I think it's silly to claim that we could never be lead astray by a prophet (God wouldn't allow it and remove that prophet) and not having any example of how it may look like if God removed a prophet who messed up...

Anyway, I'm really not inclined to respond to your post. It would take wayyyy to much time to address all the points. However, I totally resent the idea that just because one doesn't think like the majority of Mormons that you're on your way to apostasy. I don't feel I am at all. Thank you very much. It's very possible to believe in the Book of Mormon and the general organization of the Church without believing that the person who was directed to bring forth those things did everything right. Why would that have to be mutually exclusive?

And I'm sure you don't understand why woman would want women to hold the priesthood. It may not have anything to do with "power". It may just have to do with the fact that not everyone wants to be accountable to an old man they barely know. Some women may just not feel very comfortable to be quizzed about their rape experience by a man. Some women may not enjoy explaining their sexual transgressions to a man. Yet, if you want to repent (properly) it's NOT ok to talk to your RS president about it. You have to talk to a priesthood holder. Phhhhhh...I could go on with that.

As it goes, I don't actually object to the priesthood usage for ordinances being limited to the men. I just don't see why people feel so sure that women never could hold the priesthood or that there is something about the priesthood that makes it a thing only men ought to hold. It very well may change one day.

Anyway, as I said, if I wanted to truly address all your points, I'd have to take a lot of time that I simply don't have right now. If you're dying to know my perspective, feel free to call. I talk faster than I type. :)

Troy said...

What seems to be missing in this conversation is that these "old men" as you refer to them as are not who you are accountable to. You're accountable to God only and those men are called to represent Him. Who are we to consider that God may be doing something wrong in the way that He has chosen to establish his church - ie, not permitting a repentance process to go through a female mediator?? Who are we to "phhhhh" about the Lord's organization?? I can partly understand the sensitivity of having to discuss personal issues with a bishop but if it's the Lord's proscribed method, rejecting it or thinking that another way might be better is a bit, counterproductive at best. Prideful at worst. Speaking hypothetically here, not about you specifically.

And I'm all about reading to find out truth. I'm not aware of your sources. Maybe I just assumed the worst but I know that there are sources that for all of their academic accolades are not friendly to the church and are certainly not unbiased. If I incorrectly assumed that these are the things that you're reading then I admit my mistake.

Franziska Patterson said...

Troy, I respect your opinions. I really think that discussing these topics here is actually what's really not productive for me right now. :) I think I'd have to sit down and properly explain my thoughts, sources, etc. and that would take up a lot more time and space than I think fits here right now.

I may try and formulate my thoughts more clearly and write them down in the next few weeks. Maybe not.

But, honestly, I mean, you don't think you were just sharing something new with me, right? I wouldn't want to have to sit down and point out how I've served a mission, taught at the MTC for years, have always faithfully attended Church, been endowed possibly longer than you, etc. and while I don't think I've got a grasp on the depth of all gospel aspects, I think I'm pretty well aware of how we see the Church organization, prophets, bishops, repentance processes etc. Let me just say this much: I'm not questioning the Lord. That hasn't occurred to me for one second.

But, I can question people and their actions. And I don't see why I shouldn't question prophets' actions as well. It's not like that's against Mormon doctrine. We've been invited to not follow blindly, and receive our own witnesses. And that must mean that questioning is ok. President Snow himself questioned the ban on priesthood for the blacks. He said he wasn't sure whether it was simply personal opinion or truly a revelation. If a prophet can doubt another prophet, why not I as well?

As for my sources, some are Church history books (sold at Desert Book), other stuff is just straight from the documents the Church has about Church historical stuff. And really, I haven't turned to those things looking for answers. It's more like, having read those things has brought up the questions.

I think for me to dig deeper, and to truly seek to understand or strengthen my spiritual confirmation of things that seem hard to understand is not a bad thing. I actually think, we'd all benefit from such a process. I'd like to think that my friends who've left the Church, because they were so shocked over certain aspects of Church history, may have benefited from such a journey. Denial and ignorance are not a way to deal with truth.

Anyway, long answer when I meant to keep it short. As I said, maybe I'll try and formulate my thoughts on priesthood and women in a more detailed and clear manner, and then we can discuss. But, with just the tidbits I've thrown out there, I really think it'd be counterproductive.

Maren said...

I am only going to comment on the RS President having to request permission from the bishop thing since I haven't showered and have only 30 minutes to get ready to go. Cowardly, I know, I have so much more to say.

I think it is a wrong assumption to think that she has to get permission solely because he has the priesthood. Having just completed a large leadership responsibility in the church (one that the Stake President respectfully came to me for permission to do things within my jurisdiction) I feel I have some light to shed on this topic.

The Bishop is responsible for the direction and activity of the ward. It is so difficult to run an organization when you have leaders under you who are making decisions that you are unaware of hence creating the possibility of creating messes elsewhere that you have to clean up. I do not believe it is a matter of priesthood, I do not have the priesthood, rather one of respect for the organization as a whole. Leaders need to know what is going on and oftentimes they have a complete perspective when others only have the perspective of their own responsibilities. It is a general respect that allows an organization, such as the church, to run smoothly.

Now I only have 20 minutes to get ready but it was worth it. :)

Franziska Patterson said...

Haha, well, sorry you could only pick one thing to comment on Maren. :)

As for asking Bishops' permission - I can certainly sympathize with the fact that in order to help things run smoothly, communication is key, and that with certain aspects, asking permission is necessary. No doubt about that. However, it doesn't chance the fact that often it quickly change from 'we need things to run smoothly' to deferring to the priesthood holder in everything. I remember my RS society asking the bishop for permission that sisters could nurse their babies in the RS room during RS society. I think this is a perfect example of what my friend probably experienced. Why on earth would we EVER!!!!!! need to ask permission for that? It's something that a) should be a non-issue anyway (women should be allowed to nurse wherever they please) and secondly it's certainly something a RS president should be able to decide.

The organization of the Church doesn't necessarily run more smoothly when the leaders of the auxilaries keep running back to the priesthood holders for every little thing because they feel like they have no real right to make final decisions - even when those decisions may have nothing to do with the overall ward functionality or anything else that legitimately may be relevant for the Bishop.

That's my angle on this.