I've been thinking about immigration a lot. Having undergone the process of immigration myself has definitely opened my eyes to a lot of things, one of the main ones how crummy it feels when you're deprived of privileges and freedoms you're used to. When you're used to go and do your own thing as you like to, and then you can't anymore it doesn't feel so nice. Or, when you're used to being treated just as everyone else within your nation, and then you don't get that anymore, it just doesn't feel nice. But at this point I suspect that almost anyone who immigrates to whatever nation, gets to experience this 'second-class human being' feel. It ain't fun. Anyway, as I write, I'll be talking about immigrating to the US, since I haven't immigrated to any other country. However, I'm sure a lot of the issues I'll describe aren't unique to the US, though I hope they aren't the same in Germany. I'd like to think that my home country does better with this.
To start of, I should first tell you that just because you immigrated, doesn't mean you're a citizen. I've heard people confuse that a lot. It's not the same. As an immigrant, you're basically allowed to work and live in the US, pay taxes like everyone else but you don't enjoy the privileges like everyone else. Here are some of the things (legal) immigrants must do:
- carry their green cards with them at all times (if you're caught without it, it's a misdemeanor)
- register with Selective Services (if you're a male - this is military stuff for those who don't know)
- re-apply for your Green Card after 3 years, then 10 years
- notify USCIS (Immigration Agency) within 10 days of your new address if you move (you may be denied a new green card, and can even get imprisoned if you fail to do this)
- at re-entry of the US you are being finger printed and have your picture taken, every time
But let's talk about illegal immigration. From all I've heard, there seem to be 3 major concerns with illegal immigrants. First of all they came here illegally, breaking our laws by how they entered. Then people seem frustrated with the costs to citizens (and tax-paying legal immigrants) through schooling and health care provided to illegal immigrants. Lastly, there seems to be a safety/security concern of crime coming from illegal immigrants.
Let's tackle the illegally immigrating issue first. This one really irks me. People get sooo upset about people coming here illegally. And granted, I don't think it's ideal myself. I wish they'd come here legally, because then we'd all be better off. But here is the reality: There are virtually only 2 ways to immigrate to the US. One is through family relationships (like marrying a US citizen or adopting), the other one is through work (where your employer sponsors your immigration). That's it. There used to be a Green Card Lottery, where a few people can randomly win a Green Card. I don't know if they still do that. There are also a select few cases, where refugees can immigrate, or something like a Diversity Immigration where people may be allowed to enter if there aren't a lot of people of that nationality in the US yet. But, those are all small percentages. The average person cannot simply immigrate to the US.
Since illegal immigrants are often equated here with Hispanics, let's take that approach. Here are the issues I see with some fellow from Mexico (or Panama, Nicuragua, Beliz, El Salvador, or whatever) wants to come to the US. First, he must be able to get the documents he needs from his own country to even have a chance to apply for immigration. With no pass port or the like from your own country, you're not going very far. A lot of these people come from such corrupt and/or poor countries that that alone may prove impossible. But let's say they get their documents, and now want to apply for US immigration. Well, they can't. There is nothing they can apply for unless they're marrying someone from the US, or someone wants to hire them (but those are usually jobs of really, really high caliber - like some amazing scientist, or stuff like that). So, basically no go. But, let's pretend there was such an option. Then now Juan has to raise a couple of thousand of dollars to pay for the whole paper work. Where does poor Juan get that kind of money??? He doesn't, and if he had that much money in his poor country, he'd probably wouldn't need to immigrate. But let's pretend he DOES have the money, and he still wants to immigrate. Then he still has to fill out the paper work. And that's hard stuff. Trust me. Most people get lawyers. And even I considered it, fluent English speaker Fran. It can be really confusing. And there is no number to call to ask questions or something. It's 'fill it out, do it right or no Green Card'.
So, how does one immigrate legally to the US, if you don't have the good fortune of marrying a citizen or being a brilliant scientist that someone here wants to hire? It really is pretty much impossible. Except, it gets better. Let's say you ARE marrying a citizen. Then your immigration woes are still not over. See, if you make the mistake of marrying outside of the US, you may just be stuck for an indefinite period of time. This is why Henry and I had to marry in Utah (where neither one of us had family). I ran the risk of being stuck in Germany without Henry after our marriage for at least 3 months, but potentially even years. Why? Immigration laws. If you get married to a US citizen outside of the US, you cannot enter the US at all until you have your Green Card. Luckily, for most immigrants from Europe this doesn't take long. But let it be my former room mate from Mexico. She had been wanting to get married to her fiance for quite a while, but wanted her mom to be there. However, her mom, who was married to a US citizen in Mexico, was still waiting for her Green Card (and that after 2 years of marriage). Now the daughter had to decide between getting married in the US without her mom, or doing it in Mexico, but then probably being separated from her husband like her mom was from hers. But hey, at least they're doing it legally!
But it goes on. Here is what bothers me even more. Not only are we demanding the impossible of illegal immigrants, but we seem to have little compassion towards their plight. Granted, if someone came here illegal, and then becomes criminal (as in killing, raping, stealing, that kind of stuff), I'm all about sending them home. Go for it. Kick them out. But I doubt that this bill fits most illegal immigrants. Most of them come from such desperate and poor circumstances that they're willing to leave family behind, risk their lives, often loosing their lives (it is estimated that over 50 percent of people from Central/South American, who try to cross the borders die in the attempt) just to hopefully make a better life here. And how good is their life when they get here in comparison to ours? It's not that great. And yet, all we can think about is how wrong it is, and they shouldn't be here, and blablablabla. Really? Since when did this become 'our land'? It really bothers me, because I don't know that we have ownership claims on land. What did anyone do to claim land as theirs? How did the US not result because of a bunch of Europeans just marching over here and claiming it, pushing aside anyone standing in their way? So, if we can just go and claim land, then why can't someone else come and claim it as well, or claim it back? It seems weird to me to have such feelings of ownership over land, especially as members of the Church. Last time I checked, God created the world, for all his children, and sharing seems to be a big trend in the scriptures. Why can't we be more welcoming to all those who wish to share in the prosperity of the land? Especially when a lot of our own wealth is build at the expense of other, poorer, less developed nations?
It shouldn't be too hard to see if we could adjust the immigration process so people can actually reasonably immigrate legally, we may be a step closer to solving some of the immigration problems. It would definitely help with the costs, because as legal immigrants those people could pay taxes, and support the system like everyone else. It would also help separate the honest, good person more easily from the criminal. Instead though, people seem to just want to build a wall at the border, and discriminate anyone who isn't us (a citizen). At least AZ seems to want that.
The problems I see with the Arizona bill are simple. First of all, even though it is just a mirror of what federal laws already require, it has some nasty twists. By federal law, immigrants need to have their green cards with them at all times. True. If you don't it's a misdemeanor. That's not new. However, so far, this hasn't been enforced or checked much, except at places where status is checked with everyone anyway (like Social Security or at the borders). But it hasn't been checked by police officers, and as far as I understand it, they aren't even really allowed to. Now they are, at least in AZ. This causes various problems. Police cannot pull up Immigration data bases in their cars, as far as I know (I could be wrong). So, now when police officers are required to check status when reasonable suspicion is present that someone is an illegal immigrant, they may end up detaining a lot of people who are completely innocent (like legal immigrants who just forgot their card, or citizens who simply have no means of proving their status - a driver's license does not prove citizenship). It seems ridiculous to only target immigrants in a matter of legal status. If you want to be sure to sort the legal folks from the illegal folks you should check the status of every single person. In other words, everyone, citizens and immigrants alike, should be able to prove their status at the drop of the hat. Yet, only immigrants get targeted for status check. It certainly isn't fair, but it also doesn't make sense, unless...
...you think you can recognize an illegal immigrant, which is probably why the bill is claimed as racist. Of course, nothing in the bill allows racial profiling. It even says that it's prohibited. But, it does require to check status when there is 'reasonable suspicion'. Well, what's reasonable suspicion, please???? Can we clarify that before we go ahead with the bill? It's not clear. But it's clear that now officers need to check status. So, what will likely happen is that those who 'look' illegal, or should I say, Hispanic (because, let's be honest, that's the population we associate with illegal immigration), will be asked to prove their status. And that would be wrong. Even more, if not properly checked, and handled, it would turn into nothing short of of a police state, where police enjoy the privilege of randomly picking on suspicious people to prove themselves. It would but just a little reminiscent of Nazi Germany.
But if it's just about justly finding all illegal immigrants, and if checking legal status is not a big deal, then I'd say, go ahead, but make sure everyone, citizen, legal immigrant and visa-visitor alike, having to prove their status. Otherwise, all I have left is to accuse AZ of discriminating. Because that would be in fact what they are doing.
Immigration. Urgh. It makes me want to spend the few thousand dollars to naturalize. Then I too could be free.
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28 comments:
Yes, very controversial Fran. And long. But you obviously have alot to say about this, having dealt with these issues yourself. I would hope that not all of what you say about legal immigration to the US is true but you would know better than I. So I can't argue with that.
The federal government, despite what they have been saying, has been sitting on the issue of comprehensive immigration reform for far too long. However one feels about the AZ situation, it could have been avoided if the national government would act. Any comprehensive immigration reform MUST contain these two things as its most important components:
1) Crippling fines on the businesses that hire illegal immigrants. We don't need to put people out of work but the businesses need to receive a clear message that it isn't worth the risk to hire individuals who are here illegally. In probably 95% of cases, those people are just coming here to work. If that incentive is taken away many of those already here will find their way home and those not yet here will be less likely to risk their lives/imprisonment by coming here.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as the old saying goes.
2) If all you say is true then we have to make it easier for people to come here legally. That doesn't mean taking away a requirement for those people to carry some form of ID but certainly it doesn't need to be as ridiculous as you explain it. Immigration to any country won't be without its inconveniences but your post serves as further evidence that our government is becoming too large, burdensome, and oppressive rather than letting people go about their business with minimal interference.
Troy, I'd like to hear which parts in particular you hope weren't true. But really, I double-checked on the USCIS (the Government Immigration website). Clearly, I'm not a lawyer, and may still understand some stuff incorrectly, but from all I've heard and read (and I had to read a lot), it really is essentially impossible for the average person to 'just immigrate'.
My aunt is a legal immigrant and she said when she was young and married to my Uncle she was scared of people in suits because she thought they would send her back to Canada. She was here legally and still was scared. The boys I tutor are refugees and here legally and it is a nightmare helping them with all of their paperwork and I am from this country. Their mother is working hard on learning English, but when you are older it takes time and for her to understand everyday conversation is hard let alone government paperwork.
My problem with the whole legal/illegal immigration thing is the intolerance people have with things that are different. I bet a lot of people didn't question my aunt because she is white, spoke English without and accent, and fit the part. People who are different in any way make others more scared. I am sure your accent can cause some people to question who you are. It would be made worse if you were not white. I enjoy diversity so much that I am sad our country doesn't allow people to come here. I know if I decided to go live in Europe I would want that to be my decision and not a government.
Another thing that can be sad is people living here for years and years illegally and then they have kids here who are natural citizens. I think it would be so bad to have your family torn apart because of these issues.
I am not an expert on any of this. I just know how I feel and I feel fine with people being here. I am actually fine with illegal people being here as long as they are working and not causing any crimes. I want America to truly be a land of the free where everyone is welcome. I guess logistics of that are not plausible, but I am just that kind of person who wants everyone to have what I enjoy.
Well said. I think there is a lot of animosity in our country to things people don't understand or people that are "different". I think the language barrier is a big one because we don't encounter it everywhere we go like you do in Europe. I think we should require everyone in the US to learn Spanish. I think since ever increasing numbers of people in the US speak Spanish and since Mexico is our neighbor, I think it's only natural to promote communication between us and them.
Henry
Love the post. Being a foreigner here has helped me become aware of my own country' issues with foreigners. Now I understand how all the north africans and muslims feel in France. I'm lucky to be white, christian, and married to an American. I'm not that lucky anymore when I talk over the phone, because people can't see me and only hear an accent and hear my weird last name.
I'm helping right now an political refugee from Africa. Even within the church, she faces misunderstanding and a "go back if you don't have the money to be self-sufficient" attitude.
Immigration is a complex and emotional issue...it is hard to simply choose generosity but I don't think national security is threatened by immigration. Danger in the USA is already within and is linked to other laws.
The majority of immigrants are hard-working people attracted by the possibility of freedom and morality, or fleeing their own home. The lack of money is the big problem and the reason for illegal actions. it doesn't justify it.
I was very blessed to always have enough money to make it through the first years before I got married.
And I have empathy for the ones who aren't so lucky.
Not being from AZ I don't have much to say about the bill itself. Illegal immigration is a problem and that's how they are handling it as a state. When the federal gov't doesn't do its job (like protecting its borders) that state has a right to do what it needs to do. In general I think the federal gov't should have fewer rights and the states a little more. But that's just me.
The racial profiling thing really bothers me. Not because they're doing it but because it's a phrase that people throw around so much. Whenever there's a problem we have to throw race into it to make it that much worse. It's a political tool. I'm tired of political tools. I'm tired of people who think I'm too stupid to see that race is beings used to further their careers and agendas.
I also do not support Americans having to learn Spanish. I am an American and I speak English. Nothing makes me more angry than to visit my hometown in the country where I was born and see signs all around in a foreign language. Maybe it's not politically correct but I think people who live here should speak English. Learning a second language is great and Spanish definitely comes in handy but if we're required to learn it I'm going to have to say maybe learning English should be required as well.
Laura, I think you brought up an excellent point that I totally forgot. The fact that kicking out illegal immigrants can split up a lot of families. That's a difficult issue as well to consider. I mean, you may deport a parent who's here illegally, but what about their children who are born here and are citizens now? You can't just kick them out. But do you want to separate families? I'm sure a lot of people don't consider such issues.
By the way, I don't think I've got much of an accent if any, so most people usually think I'm American. But you're totally right. Let it be the wrong combination, and you're facing a lot of problems.
Troy,I certainly agree that States should have the right to take care of their own business. I am not bothered at all by AZ doing something about their immigration problem. I'm bothered by what they decided to do. If they would adjust a few things in the bill, I'm fine with it.
While I'm sure racism gets used as a tool a lot, and I'm not a fan of that either, in this particular situation, I don't think racism is just a tool, but rather that racial profiling will be an almost inevitable result because of how one part of the bill is worded. I also think it is silly/ignorant to think that racism isn't still very prevalent and even kind of natural. It's easy to get on a flight now and be a little uneasy when you have a very typically looking arabic/muslim looking person next to you. It's just what we do. I include myself in that. I'd say it's human nature. But, we don't have to let human nature go rampant, especially when we know that certain groups are associated with certain issues and therefore will be more easily exposed to (innocent) racist acts. So, I can understand your frustration when it's just used to get people riled up and distract from the real problem. But in this case I think it is a real problem.
But if you can explain to me how a police officer in AZ will be able to have reasonable suspicion when facing an individual he's dealing without using race as some sort of factor, I'd really love to hear it. Maybe I'm just seeing it all wrong.
Marie, I think you're right, it is hard to choose generosity. I think we all want to be benevolent and giving. But, it's not always easy. And it's harder when you can't put faces or a clear picture with how things will be. I still think it's right though to share of our wealth and to allow others to partake of all the good things we have and contribute as well. Money is one big problem illegal immigrants face in coming here legally, but the fact that there isn't a real immigration option is another.
Change is needed, I think both within the law, and within the hearts of the people here. America was built on immigration. It was the backbone and the foundation of this nation. To now develop anti-immigration attitudes to me would be like betraying American history.
I WAS required to take a foreign language. My choices were spanish or portuguese because those are the languages most often spoken in Tulare that aren't english. I happened to rock in my classes although I never could get the rolling r's. Just wasn't my thing.
I'm not sure how to describe exactly why the signs make me feel so mad. Maybe it's because growing up I had experiences with people who'd lived here for years but refused to learn english. Maybe it's because I grew up as a minority and years later I see more division than ever. It's crazy to think of me being a minority and experiencing discrimination but it happened.
The problem is that differences aren't being embraced and brought into a new and novel culture. Instead we are encouraging a culture to stay separate. Put signs in dual languages in areas of the country where needed (I also come from an area with many Hmong speaking refugees). Just put it in english too.
There are other things I'd like to say but we're friends so I'll leave it at that.
Part 2:
I'm all in favor of people learning Spanish. It's ridiculous that most of the world requires their students to learn a second language in school (English), and then America, barely speaking their own language properly, doesn't make any effort to connect with the world on at least a language level. Americans are often so shocked and surprised at other countries dislike of America. They're shocked when people think Americans are arrogant. I think the refusal to learn another language/learn about an other country is just one such thing that leads to such feelings.
It doesn't do anything to improve global relationships. But of course, if a nation or a people are content with isolation, then there is no point.
To be clear though, I think English should be the primary language in America since it already is. It seems practical. I also think anyone who moves here, should make an effort to assimilate and learn the language the majority is speaking. But really, I think it's just a matter of politeness to make an effort to adjust to your surroundings. I think this applies for anyone anywhere, whether I visit/move to a new state, visit someone's home, serve a mission, immigrate, go on a business trip - whatever.
I also think English should be used in schools and be a required subject in schools. I'm not a fan of bilingual instruction just to accommodate students from various language back grounds, because I feel it is it too complicated and expensive to put into practice. Kids learn languages amazingly fast, and most kids will probably be fine with English schooling (some may need some extra support).
But, I don't see any good reason at all why there can't be a requirement for a second language to be learned, ideally Spanish, which makes sense due to the proximity to lots of other Spanish speaking countries.
Switzerland, a highly patriotic, isolist nation, has 4 national languages (German, French, Italian and some funky old Swiss language/dialect thingy). Switzerland is the size of Ohio maybe. Four languages, and they're doing just fine. They love it in fact. Every official document is written in those 4 languages. But depending on which part of Switzerland you're in, signs etc. may only be in one language. And no one cares. Most people there speak 4 languages.
So, really, I don't get why this is so upsetting. I'm all for retaining history and culture, but I don't think that the American culture and language (being such hybrids anyway) are in any way threatened at all. I mean, after all, isn't this the melting pot? Doesn't that mean embracing differences, and then eventually it'll all melt into one creating what is "America"? America doesn't even have an official language, so why SHOULD stuff be in English? I'd really like to understand why this is so upsetting to you or what problems you see with this.
Ok, now I'm confused...was that Sarah or Troy writing?
An isolated culture developing is certainly a problem or at least an unpleasantness. And I really don't like it when people don't make an effort to learn the language of the majority. But, at the same time I think the tendency to stick with those who are like us can be found across the board (in the US and anywhere). The Mormons stay in Utah, the gays stick with the GLBT groups, the football fans hang out with other football fans, the dental students stick with other dental students etc.
You have subcultures developing left and right wherever you go. I'm not a fan of that. And I think everyone should make an effort to break out of their comfort zone and mingle with the rest of the world. But, just because some people fail to do so, doesn't free me from that obligation (well, I guess it's not an obligation, but you get the point). Maybe if we reached out first, it'll be easier to understand what keeps certain groups from sticking to themselves, and it will diminish the problems currently present (like discrimination and separation).
I just really believe that a lot of things can be resolved by an honest effort to communicate and reach out. If we get upset over someone else not doing it right, we may or may not be right in our views, but it just won't solve anything.
With all that said though, I'd also prefer signs to be in the languages spoken by most (so English and Spanish, for example).
Lastly, I know that pretty much all US schools require some sort of Language course, but from all I've seen, they are a joke at best. Do you actually know anyone at all who's taken a language in high school and learned it to the level that he can communicate basic stuff? I haven't. Though that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
P.S. I also changed one of my comments, because I think what I wrote sounded a lot meaner/harsher than I meant to. I hope I didn't hurt any feelings. I don't quite get the language stuff, but I want to understand. So, please feel free to share what you want to say (even if you think I won't like it) unless it's straight out mean. :) I do want to know where you're coming from.
Troy, I think you should start logging in with your own ID. I can send you an invite to your email if you let me know what it is.
The last comment was Sarah.
I'm not aware of a single school district in the country that doesn't require foreign language in high school. I was required to take French in 7th grade, Spanish in 8th grade, and 2 years of a foreign language in high school. I took 4 years of Spanish. So the requirement is already there. Apart from that how else do you require people in the US to learn another language?
Troy
His e-mail is troycline77@yahoo.com. He would love an invite :)
I don't have anything mean to say. I just have a hard time articulating how I feel in general and it's worse when I get a little emotional. I just always felt like a minority growing up and not understanding people when they were talking and the feeling's stronger when I can't understand what's being said and can't read it either.
No hard feelings here. We don't have to agree to be friends. In fact, I enjoy reading what you post because it makes me think about just why I feel the way I do about things. And because you respect the opinions of others it's easier for me to respect what you say as well, even when I don't agree. So we're cool.
Sarah, I totally understand! Actually, I feel the same. I actually struggle to get out the right words and say what I mean to say in a clear and concise matter (clearly I struggle with being concise, considering the length of all my posts). And even though I want to not get emotional with these things, I do too. I think a lot of these things have or currently affect us in personal ways, and it's hard to put aside the bad (or good) experiences we have had and just look at the 'issue'. Or sometimes you just don't have the words, but you just know how it makes you feel.
A lot of the political things I write about, I address because they affect me in an emotional way. Like immigration. :)
I'm glad you share your thoughts. I'm glad if we can agree to disagree, but even more do I want to understand where we're both coming from. If it's not too traumatic, I'd be curious to hear about some of the experiences you had in CA in regards to discrimination.
As for the language stuff, Troy. You're right. It's already a requirement. Somehow I understood it to be elective, but on top of that I also thought (from my experience) it to be super-ineffective.
What I recommend, of course, is doing it like Germany. Hahaha...No really. In Germany you start learning English in 3rd grade now, and you take it until you graduate. The result? People actually speak English. There is also an option to learn another foreign language at a later point in school, and that one you can usually choose. But English is a must.
I like the variety a lot of American schools offer. And I'm a fan of choice. At the same time, it seems not very conducive to effective language learning to have a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I think an approach similar to Germany would ensure a higher quality of language education. It's just anecdotal data of course, but I haven't yet met a person who has actually learned to somewhat speak another language in high school. Exceptions certainly exist though!
So, therefore it would make sense to me if, for example, it now became part of the standard curriculum to have Spanish starting in 3rd grade until you graduate, or at least for 6 consecutive years or something like that. But maybe that would have more to do with public education. We don't want to get into that now.
I have thought for a long time that if they made legal immigration possible for normal people without gobs of cash and a lawyer, most of the illegals would go home and do it right so they wouldn't have to live in constant fear of deportation any more. That saves us the cost of deportation, the controversy of amnesty, and offers us the security of knowing who's here.
There is actually a number you can call when filling out green card stuff. I know because my University Educated husband whose first language is English had to call it dozens of times when filling out the paper work.
My least favorite part of immigration is that whenever you go in for an appointment they treat you like scum. They treated me like scum and I'm a citizen. I actually went in to Kevin's naturalization ceremony expecting them to treat me poorly because that's what I had come to expect from the department of homeland security. I was pleasantly surprised.
Here's my response to a tangent in one of the comments. As an educator and as a parent I'm all for bilingual education. It's good for both ESL students and students wanting to learn another language. Like you said children can easily learn another language, so why not put them in a situation to help each other actually do it? And, even though it's easier for children to learn, it still takes a few years to really be proficient academically, so it certainly offers teachers and students a way to ease into it. And research shows improvements in test scores in all areas by students who are bilingual. Not to mention that obviously immersion is the best way to learn a language.
Talyn, I want the number!!! Really, when I tried to fill out my stuff, I couldn't find a number at all. No wait. I think there was a number, that gave you automated messages, and was the most useless thing I had ever encountered. I was constantly frustrated that there was no one to talk to on the phone. I did make 2 appointments with the SLC immigration office, just to ask questions about the paper work. It was a real hassle.
Did Kevin really find a number he could use, a person he could talk to and ask questions? If he did, and can find that number for me, I'd love it. I want it. I've never been able to locate such a jewel.
As for being treated like scum...yeah, that's what I mean with the whole 'second-class human being' feel. Where every action says "Your money please, and now bow in humility at our feet and thank us for our great mercy to let you dwell amongst us".
As for bilingual education, I'm not opposed to it in principal. But after what I've seen in regards to public education, and the quality of educators etc., I wonder how likely it is to do a good job with that, and how likely it won't cost a fortune. The other problem I'd see is fairness. It makes sense to me to go with a majority language like Spanish, and simply require that of everyone the way English is required in most other countries. But, it seems in some places in the US, who have a high population of refugees from one country, Spanish would just be a third foreign language. It seems hard to me to arrange all the right teachers for all the right groups etc. In some classes you may have a bunch of Hispanic kids, some Somalians, maybe some Indians and then some Americans. How do you meet such a variety of language needs? I find that almost impossible and therefore think it shouldn't be attempted. Let's stick with English, and pick another second language that we think most people will likely benefit from would be my suggestion. Or, I guess it was Henry's actually.
Fran I think learning a foreign language from elementary school would be a great idea. But the first priority for America's public schools needs to be getting our students to do the basics like reading and math and speaking English (and I'm talking about the native Americans here many of whom can't even speak proper English). There's a public elementary school here in Memphis that runs on an accelerated academics program which includes, among other things, foreign language study (Spanish specifically). I would love if Seth could be going there but unfortunately we moved just outside of the school boundaries.
Oh, I'm with you on that Sarah. I agree there's no point in doing all kinds of fancy stuff when you can't even read/write. I definitely think those should be essential. But, I think learning another language should be as well.
I do find it really interesting though that research indicates that children you are educated bilingually seem to do just as well in all areas (or even better I guess) than just one language learners. It seems that there is little that indicates that having another language being taught as well is a problem. I rather suspect that the actual problem we face with these things is the quality of education in general. But alas, that would be a whole other can of worms. We better not get into that now.
I think we agree on the value of learning other languages. And seeing how the Clines are smart like no other, I'm sure all your kids will be great speakers both of English and whatever other language. I do think that Seth should learn French though, seeing how he's such a lady's man. It'd make more sense. ;)
Amen to this post. I have nothing thought- or anger-provoking to say. Just amen.
This one is a tricky topic. And it does apply to other countries as well. The EU makes it really hard to immigrate, too. So does Australia. Canada makes it a bit easier... for the well-educated, at least.
After graduating, J had a work visa. Which he only got because the company that hired him attested that there is no American citizen with his special skill set. That did not mean he had a green card or permanent residence. Nor did it mean that I got a work visa. I was his dependent, and I was not allowed to work. In fact, I had more rights as a student at BYU.
So, even when you are hired by an American company doesn't mean you get automatic Green Card status. In fact, most of the "foreigners" living in the US we know have worked there for 10plus years, and they'll always be on a work visa, with no chance of getting permanent residence status... like EVER.
So they work and pay their taxes, but they don't get any benefits.
That's quite frankly one of the main reasons we left. Do you want to raise your family in a country in which you have no rights? NO.
Now our story is different. Because we are from safe and wealthy Europe, which we love and always wanted to return to, anyway. It wasn't a problem, because we had a future at home.
But those illegal immigrants don't. There are Africans that die on the ocean rafting to Europe every day, because they try to get to Spain or Italy (illegally). I feel for them. I do.
What should be done about this? I don't know. All I know is that things aren't right. That giving illegal immigrants automatic naturalization after they've lived in the US for five years isn't right, either. That it's unfair for those who work and live there there, legally, and never get a chance.
But I also know that living in a wealthy country gives us an obligation, I think, to give poor people a chance, too. How? I don't really know. But maybe the solution isn't in stopping immigration. In fact, I think the future of the Western world lies in immigration.
I think the solution might be to be more globally minded, to live more conscious of the third world. Support Africa, support fair trade, make those countries livable, and people will want to stay at home. Don't build walls, build bridges of communication and support. Build wells and dams, and education opportunities.
This is all airy fairy and not very spot-on, but those are just some of my thoughts.
I'm totally with you Isa. I think that's sort of what I tried to say but with about a million more words. I don't know that there are easy solutions, but I think just hiding our wealth behind walls isn't right either.
Anyway, for those who are still reading, AZ just made some amendments to their bill, and I think the bill is a lot better that way. I still see some issues but since they'll be rather rare instances and are more likely to affect a citizen than me, I guess I'll just be happy with it.
So I get upset at the idea of illegal immigration for the fact that Tobi and I did go through all the hassle you describe (he did immigrate legally). On some level it feels like we paid for the opportunity to provide the life we want for our family - and illegals stole it (that is my law abiding citizen self - which is not to say I don't have a side that gets annoyed at the hassle created in connection with political borders).
Has anyone noticed that the written parts of US passports are in English and French. This is not because a ton of the colonists were French. At the time of Americas founding French was the Lingua Franca - the language you needed to know to function on the world stage. (Don't tell the French) but the modern Lingua Franca is English. This is a major contributor to Americans being required to pick some (but generally not a specific) foreign language in high school for a measly two years and generally never becoming very proficient in a foreign language; because currently English happens to be the most useful language to know (generally speaking) - there is a reason that German 3rd graders are learning it after all.
I love Switzerland with it 4-5 official/national languages. I totally got a kick out of how in the German speaking part German or English could be easily used and in the French speaking area, if you couldn't speak French they would speak (French) very slowly for you. My Dad warned me I was favoring that dang German language too much and should have put more effort into my French (but Americans generally don't attain any foreign language proficiency, so my German skills already made me an over achiever right?
And I am sure glad Americans aren't required to learn Spanish - there are just some many other languages I higher on the list of languages I'm interested in learning (and Spanish wouldn't have done me any good in Switzerland anyway.)
There is actually a number you can call and US immigration for help, and if you have a lot of endurance and a little bit of luck and make it through the maze of options and don't give up because the end of every menu is the option to hang up if you want to end the call - you can even talk to a live person (in English) whose job it is to know how to help you figure out all the agrivating forms and fees.
In America, if you think the life here is better than where you are coming from and you are willing to risk death and deportation to provide it for you family through illegal immigration your children and grandchildren (assuming they are born here) will have all the rights and privileges of any other US citizen. In Germany you can immigrate legally, but if you (or your spouse) don't have citizenship neither will your decendants who are born there - ask the third generation born in Germany Turks. I'm not sure which is preferable, it might depend on which of those generations you find yourself in.
Well I'll post my long-as-a-blog-itself-comment now and then finish reading all the other comments, even at the risk of feeling compelled to comment more.
Ok another (shorter) comment. At the risk of sounding anti-immigration (which I'm not or I would have told my husband to get himself back to that Germany where he came from a long time ago), if we are concerned about the difficulty of immigrating legally for people who just want a better life, is the answer in making immigration easier, or would it be a better solution to expend resources in helping them create a better/safer/healthier/more free/whatever environment in their native land?
Kroekie Monster, your last comment is exactly what I was saying, too.
And just as a side note: German naturalization laws have changed in recent years. It is now possible to get German citizenship, even when your parents are not German. Some tough requirements you'll have to contend with (language tests etc), but so they are everywhere.
Aliza, I don't care whether we make an effort to improve conditions for poor people in their home countries or choose to make immigration to the US (or other well-off countries)possible, but I'm definitely frustrated with the sentiment that 'illegal immigrants should get out and come here legally' - mainly because they can't. Of course, it seems unfair for people like me or Tobi or others like us to have paid, and done the work etc. to be here legally. And, of course, I prefer legal immigration, but at the same time I don't get upset at illegal immigrants. Most of them come from such desperate circumstances, and are in such positions that they never could have what I have, and their lives have never been as easy as mine (because at the end, even immigrating was comparatively easy for me and Tobi in comparison to what a lot of other people have to go through). I don't feel like my quality of life has been limited in any way as the result of illegal immigration. But, I do feel that my life-style is probably a bit of a contributor to illegal immigration (since I think the western life-style depends largly on exploitation of poorer countries, where then people want to leave because of poverty). If any illegal immigration makes me mad, then it's the one of other Westerners, who did stuff like overstay their visas etc., and then still got to adjust and fix stuff and end up with a Green Card without ever facing much hassle, not to mention punishment. That, to me, is superunfair. Not only towards me, but in this case, especially illegal immigrants. It only shows what kind of people get favored - the rich.
Anyway, I focused on my comments on the US, but you're right that things aren't better elsewhere (like Germany), which doesn't make me happy either. But, if I'd talk about all my views on immigration in general in the whole world,...
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