Or, maybe it's not for you. Anyway, a while back I think I suggested to discuss this topic at some point. It's recently come up again in discussions elsewhere, so I thought I may as well put it up for grabs here.
When I came to the US in 2002 for college, I met some home-schooled people in my ward. I thought they were a little odd, nice, but odd. Needless to say, I thought home-schooling was a bad idea. I had quite a few reasons for why I thought so beside those 2 people I met. But, I have since changed my views and actually plan on homeschooling (though I guess we'll see how strong the determination is down the road). So, I'll map out my personal pro and cons for homeschooling here and then you can share your views, and we can debate away. Also, I should say up front that I am not necessarily for or against either option. I think kids can turn out fine with whatever school option you choose. To me, the key in having a child grow up successfully is not necessarily just in the schooling choice, but rather how involved the parents are.
PRO Homeschooling (for me)
1. I'm thoroughly unimpressed with the US public education system. From all I've seen, heard, read - it's pretty crappy. I worked in a school for a year, and honestly, what I saw the teachers do, I know I can do as well, and not only that - I think I could do much better. I want my kids to have a good education, and I don't feel they're necessarily getting that in a public school. I'm also not happy with the overall schedules (starting at 5 years, being in school for 8 hours, eating nasty lunches in school etc.). I don't think my elementary school-aged kid needs to or ought to be gone all day, and be under the care of someone else for that long.
2. Public Schools creep me out. I think this part of my reasoning is probably fairly biased. I've after all, never gone to school in the US. But, from all I've read, seen, heard...I feel there way to many creepy violent things going on, too much extreme bullying, and that kind of stuff. Again, having worked in day care, and thinking that most kids today basically grow up in day care, and thus that those will the kids my kid will be surrounded with...doesn't convince me that my child is in a good and healthy environment.
3. I like flexibility. Homeschooling will allow me to do things I'd otherwise not be able to, like traveling whenever we want to, or educating my children in German, or doing field trips and outings that otherwise wouldn't be time for. I can cater more to my children's interests, unique abilities and also possible problems. And we can decide on the routine of our day. If we want to start school at 10 am, we could.
There are other, less important reasons that make me want to homeschool, like being able to avoid some (or a lot) of the 'patriotic indoctrination' that may take place in school. I do want our kids to learn to love and appreciate the US, but I'd feel very uncomfortable having a bunch of typical American patriot kids running through my house. Having them at home allows me to present certain topics in a way that I feel is more meaningful.
CONS
I do think there can be down-sides of homeschooling. :)
1. Keeping up with stuff that needs to be covered so they're competitive for college. This is probably my biggest fear. I feel pretty comfortable with covering elementary school levels, but past that I don't feel very sure of myself. I am afraid that with more kids, and more demands on my time, it will be hard to keep up with the stuff that needs to be done. Luckily, I feel there are many alternatives to tackle that issue, such as online-schooling programs (or homeschool groups, or simply sending your kids to public school at a later point). Right now my plan definitely involves online schools down the road. Hopefully at that age my kids have learned to be self-directed and self-disciplined to learn that way. Also, a lot of online-schools let you pick courses, or enroll full-time and so I'd still have some flexibility in what I want covered, and I can be right there for my child if needs be. And because it's online, our flexibility doesn't have to suffer too much.
2. Socializing. I do think it's very important for kids to be out there, socializing with other children. I've also had this point brought up most often as a reason why 'homeschooling is bad'. Well, here is my take on it. I definitely don't want our kids to grow up sheltered from the world. It does seem to me that that's a big reason why a lot of people DO homeschool - to keep their kids away from the big evil world. Well, I don't want that. I think it's important for us to be out there, and influence the world for good. I also think it's important to be faced with people who think differently, act differently, look differently, who are mean, rude, weird...whatever. I think learning to deal with others, and difficult situations is very valuable. And you definitely don't get that opportunity if you're only ever at home with your own family.
However, at this point I have various issues with that argument. First of all, while I want my kids to learn to handle difficult situations, I don't know that a 5 or 6-year old has learned all the skills necessary to handle a lot of the things that are thrown at kids in school today. Maybe it wasn't so bad 20 years ago, but now some of the stuff I read/hear doesn't sound good (like porn, masturbation, sex, violence etc already finding their way into elementary ed levels). Considering the general set-up of schools (lots of kids, few adults) I don't think it's very likely that there will be a caring adult around who can help my child learn to make the right choices, or to handle conflict properly. Sure, you can learn by doing, and sometimes (or often) it's good to just figure things out by yourself. But, I think at such a young age, children still need a lot of direction and help and most importantly a caring support person. And isn't that what a parent is there for? I'm sure a lot of teachers would like to be just that, but with 20-30 kids wanting your attention, you can only do so much.
Also, I'm not convinced that school is the ONLY nor the BEST setting to find the opportunity to socialize and interact with other children. I think with the right effort, you can have your kids meet others in all kinds of places. It would definitely take a concerted effort. But, I think it can be done. Lastly, considering some of my personal experiences, as well as the experiences of others from school, I'm just not so sure anymore how valuable those 'hard' school experiences really are. I'm sure Henry has somehow benefited from having been teased half of his school time for his huge glasses. Maybe. But, I also know he's carried away a self-consciousness about it that he still has with him. Maybe my younger brother learned something from being beaten up repeatedly in elementary school. But, I think it's impacted his life deeply - and not necessarily for the better. So, while I'm sure some of those hard school experiences that are inevitable will make us stronger, I wonder how many of them are necessary to be a happy, healthy, socially competent person. Do I need to try drugs to know they're bad? Do I need to experience certain things in school to know it's not fun (to be bullied, teased, pushed, to masturbate or whatever)? I don't know. Right now I"m not willing to subject my kids to that. Also, who says you can't learn to be a good person at home with your siblings and parents. Considering that I'm not really in touch anymore with anyone I went to school with, but that my family keeps sticking around...maybe it's more important to learn to have close and good relationships with siblings and parents rather than everyone else. But, I do recognize that we don't just live with our family for ever, and we need to learn to get along with others...but, I haven't met a homeschooled adult yet who wasn't able to make friends and have a 'normal' life. Even the 2 people I met at BYU, though a little strange at times, were having fun and lots of friends, and were doing quite well in any aspect I could see. And really, it's not like there aren't incompetent weirdos out in the world, who went to public school.
3. Time. Clearly, having your kid(s) gone for most of the day creates time for other things, such as pursuing your own interests more, or having more time with the kids at home. This is definitely a factor that also matters to me. Thinking to kind of maintain the current pace my life has by not always having all of our kids (that we anticipate to have) at home, sounds appealing. And I'm sure there will be days where I wish for that. But, I try to figure out what matters more to me. I've voluntarily taken on the role of parent. No one forced me. I knew more or less what it would entail. I definitely knew that it would mean caring for each child for about 18 years in our home. I've made that choice, and now I don't want to take an easy way out of that if I don't feel it's the better choice for us. In other words, I don't want to send my kids to school just because it's convenient. If I felt it was the best choice for all of us, then that'd be different. But, if I feel home-schooling is a better choice for us, then I think not doing that just because I want my free time, or an easier life is, though understandable, cheating my kids out of the best they could have. I don't feel good about that. So, this reason, with all its appeal doesn't count for me right now.
So, it'll be homeschooling for now. Until I go crazy or feel I can't do a good enough job. We'll see how it goes.
In the meantime, why would you want to homeschool/not homeschool?
Saturday, August 14, 2010
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38 comments:
I was homeschooled during high school and I tend to disagree with the number 2 on your con list. Really how much socialization are kids getting in school when they are just with peers their own age?
I believe that the 36 to 54 hours kids spend in public/private school-related weekly activities is not an adequate way to train children to become adults. I’m convinced it isn’t the socialization in the school setting that prepares students for the real world.
The “real world” prepares students for the real world!
Socialization isn’t learned in a vacuum; where else in life will we be clumped into a classroom day after day with only people their own age?
When I homeschooled I was involved with people of all age ranges, from children to adults.
I had the opportunity to complete my work as fast or as slow as I wanted and then had the option to pursue other interests. In school, kids have to wait for all the other kids to complete their work before moving on- the teacher can only focus on so many children at a time!
As a family, we went on field trips to various parts of the U.S., I volunteered in the community, and helped others during the time I was in "school". That was much more socialization than I ever would have received in school.
Natasha, maybe the key is in how we define 'socialization'. If it means to interact with other human beings outside of your immediate comfort zone (family), then I think school definitely serves as a place for interaction and socialization.
As I stated, I'm NOT convinced that school is the only place nor the best place to learn to interact with different people, but it's certainly a convenient place to learn interact with many different people. I'd also disagree that you only interact with people of your own age in school. Many elective classes have students of different ages in it, though probably rarely more than a few years apart. You also interact with different adults, and clearly with people from all kinds of different backgrounds. I do think school can serve a useful environment for learning to interact with others. I also don't think that the school setting doesn't apply to other life settings. First of all, college also forces you into class room settings with many people of your age...so, unless you're not planning on college then I think school definitely can prepare for that environment. Many jobs require you to spend hours in the same room/environment working with other people as well, which is also not so far from a school setting.
Sure, the 'real' world prepares you for the real world. But, it's probably hard to decide what 'real' constitutes. If you want to become a public school teacher, as many are, then school would prepare you for the real world. It certainly depends on how you look at it.
So, while I agree with you that I don't think school is necessary to learn to socialize/interact with others, I definitely think that it provides a useful scenario for that.
This is an interesting topic...
The biggest reason I would want to homeschool would simply be that the world is getting very wicked. Yes, kids I knew were having sex, doing drugs and watching porn. I did not consider these people my friends. I could avoid these things fairly easily. However, high school is a very different place now. Sexting is rampant, porn is introduced at even younger ages because it is even easier to get to. Prescription drug abuse also seems easier. I think that when I was in high school, all I really had to do was avoid it. I think now, you have to make a conscience decision to stick to your values more than ever. You have to realize that the decisions you make then can, and probably will, influence the rest of your life. And well, teenagers aren't always the best at seeing the whole picture. Yes, there is always repentance, but that of course is harder than never following a false path. It scares me to think about the things my children will face when they are teenagers- it is already bad enough, and it will only go down hill.
That being said, I also think that they have to learn how to be in the world without being of it. Everywhere we go, we will be faced with a world that is following Satan. They'll find in the work place, they'll find it at college- even BYU. I don't want to shelter my children so that when they leave my house they are shocked. I have seen really sheltered children go completely wild when they finally got the chance. I would rather that my kids make those mistakes while in my house, with me still there to guide and direct, than out of it. I think that being around their peers helps them learn how to get along with others, and teaches them how to accept others who are different. Socializing at church usually equals, being around others who are pretty similar to yourself, and I don't think that's enough. And even if other situations, like a neighborhood group or something, if you can't get along with people, you can always quit. You can't really quit school. I think it teaches problem solving.
And I don't think that the argument about all kids not being on the same level is a good one. School is not the end all of education. For those who are ahead of the game, there are always books to be read, and other learning opportunities. I took college classes online. They can tutor their classmates who are behind. There are always ways to learn. outside the classroom.
Lastly, I think that school is good for the parent/child relationship. I think that it is good for someone else to be telling your child what they need to do. If your kids don't do their homework, that is between them and their teacher. If you're the teacher, that is just one more thing you might have to struggle with. I'm all about avoiding those struggles- I have enough of them without homeschooling too. Along the same lines, it teaches responsibility outside of the home, which is most definitely part of "real life."
Kari, you're not seriously trying to suggest that there is bad stuff going on at BYU, are you??????? It's the the Lord's freakin' university! Ok. Just kidding.
So, I kind of agree with you and I kind of don't. I think you definitely brought up a point about school that I tried to put my finger on (but couldn't). I think the issue of 'not being able to quit school' is definitely an important setting for certain learning experiences. However, I'd argue that you actually CAN quit school (and tell your parents you want to learn at home). I think the issue is rather that children need to learn to work through things at times and not quit because it's hard. I think just how a parent can insist on keeping a child in school, a parent could insist on his child staying in a band/orchestra group, a home-schooling group, a volunteer group of sorts, a dance class, or whatever. But, I definitely agree that children have to learn to work through conflicts and not be freed from hardship by running away from the obstacle.
I also agree that Church isn't a full substitute for socialization. It certainly creates opportunities to interact with people outside your family, but as you pointed out, it doesn't necessarily allow for much socialization outside of our ...let's call it 'life-style' group. But, again I think I could argue that school isn't that dramatically different. While you may meet more none-members at school, I'd think that unless you're living in a rather poor area, that you'll probably hang out with mostly white, middle class kids...and if you're somewhere out west or in Texas or whatever, a lot of Mormons as well. So, I guess I could still question how diverse those exposures are. Again, I think if we want kids to be exposed to other children (of different cultural, socioeconomic, and religious background as well as age - there are probably many ways to achieve that other than school alone, where the tendency is anyway to hang around those who are most similar to you).
School and learning. Ok, so again I kind of agree with you and kind of don't. I definitely think anyone who wants to learn can find opportunity to learn more no matter what their schooling looks like. As you pointed out there are online courses you can take, books you can read etc. The down side I see for a 'fast learner' in school is that he's wasting a lot of time. While he could cover the materials of the day in maybe 4 hours on his own, he has to hang around for another 4 hours, because the rest aren't as fast. In the time where he could maybe get started on something else, take an online course or whatever, he's stuck...at school. I do think you make a good point about being able to help other kids in class, if you're fast. But, again, if a kid could do stuff in 4 hours at home, then do 4 hours of 'advanced learning' so to speak, you could tutor someone in your 'free time' and make it a great opportunity to socialize with someone outside your usual environment. But, really, I see the bigger problems for the slower learners. It's just a fact that a teacher can only do so much for struggling students when there are 20-30 kids to deal with. The current trend to fix this seems to be to lower education to the level of the slowest and most struggling, which I think leads to the poor quality of overall education in the US. I don't see how anyone really benefits from that if learning and education are the goal of school. I also don't think the struggling learner really benefits. She may be better of in a setting that really caters to her needs versus trying to go slow and easy hoping it'll do the trick.
And I think on the last point I just flatout disagree with you, unless I misunderstood you. :) I think teachers have zero responsibilities for kids homework. I think the only responsibility a teacher has (in my opinion) is to teach and cover the expected subject material to the best of her abilities, to promote learning as much as she can, to keep order in the class to allow learning, and to report any potential problems/issues to parents and authorities. I don't think it's a teacher's job to make sure a kid does homework. I think that's the parents job. And it really irks me when I feel parents think teachers are the 'away-from-home' parents. They're not. They're there to pass on information, not to be psychologists, friends, parents, body guards, etc. Of course, they have a certain supervisional function as teachers, but I think it should be merely focused on noticing problems/issues as they arise and bring it to people's attention. Not to solve it. Also, while I'm all for responsibility I just don't think it's learned without consequences. If you want to learn that being lazy is bad, you need to experience what happens when you're not doing your part. School (and society in general right now) eradicates a lot of responsibility these days. It's easy to scrape by without doing what you should. As a fact, I've pretty much never done homework in my whole life. My parents never checked, never asked. I scraped by ok, so I didn't learn to take on that responsibility. Sure, there were consequences. There were bad grades, and switches to other schools, but my parents never asked/wondered about homework, and so...I never learned to do what I should. I turned out ok, but I didn't learn to take responsibility for my education. Teachers are very limited in their ability to let consequences follow poor decisions, and with the trend to avert any really bad consequences, I'm not convinced kids will get the message in school. I think it's way too easy to fall below the radar (if that's the right saying).
I do agree though that it can be good for your child to hear what you've taught them from others as well. It would reinforce your messages. I don't know though how much I'd like someone to tell my kid what to do if I thoroughly disagree with what they think my kid should do though. So...again, I'm not sure how much I agree with that, and again I think kids can experience others authority without having to be in school. There are summer camps, classes, church, neighbors babysitting, other relatives...Actually, the more I think about it, I think kids get to experience authority and being told what to do pretty much left and right. Maybe it would reduce conflict if they don't get 10,000 commands from different people all the time every where. Maybe they'd be less confused, and less rebellious. No idea. That just popped into my head.
Anyway, I'm not trying to dispute every argument that comes my way. Rather, I want to dissect all the pro's and con's and try and figure out how much there is to reach reason. I hope it'll help me solidify or change my views, depending on what I discover...maybe it helps others. So, no one take offense please. I think any personal view is totally valid, even if I disagree. I'm not God.
P.S. Kari, I totally agree though on not wanting sheltered kids. But, then again what's 'sheltered'. I always felt half of Utah was sheltered. :) Again, I think any parent who wants their kids to be exposed and aware of 'the world', will be able to teach that, and prepare kids, whether that's through regular interactions/playing time etc. with non-members, or taking them to places you'd never go with a school (like maybe a woman's shelter, women who're pregnant out of wed-lock, homeless shelter, prison...who knows what).
My school was very diverse. Yes, we all lived in Texas, but my friends had parents from India and China, and were from many different religious backgrounds. I spent time in their homes, seeing how they lived, and heard their parents tell stories about where they come from. After Sep. 11th, I saw a Muslim boy spit on simply because of his looks. There were even outwardly gay and lesbian students. I'd say that I saw and learned a lot from going to my school. (In case you were wondering, I told off the boys who spit on that poor kid's hair. I even wrote an article in the school newspaper about how we needed to be united because of this tragedy, not divided).
And to your point about the teachers. Yes, they can't make you do your homework, and yes, it is the parents job to ask questions and make sure that it gets done. But, like you said, there are consequences that are outside the home. Bad grades may, or may not, be a consequence that your kid cares about, but he is still accountable. He still gets graded. When he gets a job, he will be accountable outside of his house. In school, like it or not, he is accountable to his teacher, even more to himself.
I don't think I am saying what I want to say as well as I would like. My niece was home schooled for a year because she was one of the "slow" learners. It was disastrous to say the least. It caused extreme conflict between her and her mother. They hated each other. Sometimes kids will listen to their teachers more than their parents. It's sad, but true. Now she is back in public school, and their relationship is much better.
I don't know about you, but I also could not get help at home with school work. I won't go into the details online, but it was not a good idea.
As for the slower learners, I say, once again, that is the parents responsibility to work with them at home. Yes, I concede that they may be wasting time at school, but I'm not entirely sure that is true...
I forgot a few things.
It is a lot harder to quite school than it is to quit a job, or some other non-required activity. And if your kid is quitting school, I can almost guarantee that it is not so they can be home schooled.
Well, Kari if it's just you and me debating, maybe we should postpone this for a few weeks. ;) But, for the benefit for anyone else who'll read later on...here a few more responses :)
1. I should mention that I think the most important thing is probably to figure out what's right for your individual child. What may be right for one child may not be for another. And in some cases homeschooling may be right, in others attending public schools. There is probably no point in getting hung up on doing things one way or another, when it's not what's right for your child.
2. Henry pointed out that homeschooling or pubic schooling is as good as those involved make it. If you have a bad parent/child relationship, or are in whatever way not able to be a good homeschooling parent, this would probably be a pretty bad choice. But, if you're in a bad school, with bad teachers, etc. it could be equally bad. I'd agree with that.
3. I'd also add that just because some homeschooling experiences are not good, doesn't mean it CANNOT be good. I'm sure you could find 10 bad public schooling experiences for every bad homeschooling experience.
4. Quitting school is harder than quitting other things. True. But I don't think it's harder than quitting family. If you homeschool, your child is not freed from having to work, keeping up with certain standards, and learning to work through conflicts at home. You can't just quit family. Either way though, I don't see how this would have anything to do with responsibility and accountability.
You almost had me convinced at first.But then I thought about it. I do think it's important to practice a skill outside of the usual environment (so to try being accountable to others etc. instead of just your parents). But, I think the natural tendency for any human being is to apply what they've come to know and learn at home to new settings. So, if you've taught your child to be responsible, and they've had opportunity to practice being responsible through small (or big) projects, chores, jobs somewhere else, classes they participated in, church callings etc. why would they NOT apply those things once they hit 'the real world' for good? If we operate on the assumption that whatever we teach at home goes out the window the second kids are somewhere else, and they can only learn to be what they need to be somewhere else, parenthood becomes moot altogether. It doesn't make sense to me.
I think school does provide a convenient opportunity to learn different things. But again, I'm still not convinced it's the only possible way or the best way. It's just one way to me.
However, I DO agree that sometimes children listen more to an 'outsider' like a teacher, or principal, school nurse or whatever. I think that's usually the result of poor parent/child relationships.
Which brings me to my next point. Sometimes we're not graced with the home/parenting environment that would make for good homeschooling. When parents have too many 'issues' themselves, I'd like to think kids are probably better off at school. But, if you have a good, loving home, I think your relationship with your family can really grow and benefit from homeschooling. When I look at my homeschooled nephews, I'm just amazed at what a wonderfully close and trusting relationship they have with each other and their parents. I've rarely seen that in other families.
I actually found it interesting that you mentioned how school teaches accountability and responsibility because you can't just run away from the setting, but then when your sis-in-law homeschooled and it was bad, they basically ran away from the issue by sending the child back to school. How did they learn to work through the issues there?
That sounds really harsh now. I'm not trying to judge here. This was probably the right decision for them, and it's really not about them, but rather the general argument. If we believe that we learn to resolve conflict by not being able to just run away from it, then it wouldn't make sense for parents to 'quit' something because it's hard. Shouldn't we learn to work through that kind of stuff even more than anything that happens at school? Families, after all, are forever. Again though, the solution at times for such issues may be to send a child back to school, or the other way around, to pull a child out.
Lastly, if you really want your child to be accountable to someone else, like a teacher, have official grades, the possible threat of failing classes, having to repeat a grade etc. - there is always online-schooling you can do. Every state has online charter schools with REAL teachers, etc. That kind of stuff may prepare kids even more so for the real world than going to school considering the technological trend of things. Working from home becomes more and more common. Having meetings online becomes more common. It may actually be a good way for kids to learn to do what needs to be done without someone looking over their shoulder all the time. ;)
Before I get into my thoughts on the subject of Homeschooling or Public Schooling, did you realize that if you were in Germany you wouldn't have the freedom to decide, as homeschooling is illegal there. Hmm, actually, since each state has various laws governing eduation, I'm suddenly not sure if that is true for all of Germany or just certain states.
Anyway, I have seen failures and successes in both home and public schooling. Parents, teachers, and the students themselves all make a difference. The parent part of the equation is the one we have the greatest control over, although if we are involved parents it's more likely that we will be able to influence the quality of the teachers as well.
I went to public school myself, but it wasn't like my parents sent us there and we were out of sight out of mind. My mom volunteered at least once a week in each classroom that her children attended (in elementary school). She sought out elementary schools where parent volunteer programs were set up and when she moved to an area that had never heard of such a thing, she just showed up in Pete's class anyway. Dad was our go to guy for homework help.
What I'm trying to get at is that my parents used the public school system as a backbone for our academic education, but they didn't just turn us over to that system.
My brother Joe has been a social butterfly at least as long as he's been able to speak, so public school probably wouldn't have been a socialization necessity for him, but I would have been a real hermit without it. And I was surrounded by lots of white Mormon kids, going to school in Utah as I did, but my closest friends were Chinese and American with Chinese parents, one is Protestant (it was kind of fun to go to another faith's Youth camp) and one is Buddaist. My sisters best friends were Jewish, Spencer only had 2 and 1/2 friends (or was it 3 and 2/3rds - somehow he had fractions of friends), Dan's friends were trouble, Pete's school friends are the only people his age to hang out with, since he's half the age of all his siblings and twice as old as his nieces and nephews.
I am not very familiar with primary education outside of Utah, but in the Beehive state, parents who care to, can "shop around" to find the school that best meets their childern's needs - do they need an excelled program, or one that addresses the special needs of those with learning or physical handycaps - there are even bilingual (though not in German) schools.
Obviously the public school with major parental participation is what I know best; and because I don't personally feel capable of being all things to my children, I anticipate something similar for my boys. I do plan on being their first German teacher though, since I don't know of an elementary school around that teaches that subject - that will be their only "homeschool" class though.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/8576769.stm
re: homeschooling in Germany
Yup, I know that homeschooling is illegal in Germany, and it's illegal in all States. However, Germany's schools and school system are quite different from the US's, which would have influenced things for me if I would have been in Germany and had a choice (since one of my biggest reasons for homeschooling is the sub par general education of US public schools). Also, recently there has been a group of students in Bavaria who've started studying and learning on their own. They quit school in 12th grade, and organized themselves to learn and finish their Abitur. It's a growing initiative, and who knows...things may just change down the road.
I've also read that article before that you showed and think those people shouldn't have received asylum, but whatever. I definitely wouldn't leave a country over this. If I didn't have an option, then I'd make do with what I have. This family to me is a great example of freaky parents who want to shelter their kids from ideas they don't agree with. I don't care for that, and it's one thing that doesn't worry me about public schools at all. I'm not afraid of my kids hearing/learning stuff that I don't believe.
Anyway, other than that your experience with education only shows to support my point that eduction is about as good as those involved make it. With an involved parent, things can be fine - either way probably.
I think that pretty much sums it up. Education, no matter how you do it, is just as good as you make it. I agree that different children need different things. And I don't think that my sis-in-law quitting home schooling was a bad thing. Some kids just need someone else to tell them what to do.
I plan on sending my kids to public school, and working with them at home. There are also lots of volunteer work that can be done in your children's classroom. I don't think public school is enough, but I think it's the place to start. There are things that kids can get at public school that they can't get from homeschooling, or even online classes. I actually don't think it's a good idea to only do online classes. These days, it's easy to live online, and not a real life at all.
Ok, how about this?
http://www.nheri.org/Research-Facts-on-Homeschooling.html
Granted, the research has been done by the guy who started this research center, but it's been published in respectable journals, so I'd say there is something to the findings. I've also researched these results a bit, and there seem to be other sources reporting them same results:
Home-schooled kids appear to do better academically, and better socially and emotionally, regardless of parental education, income, or whatever...seems to make a good case for homeschooling, I think. Maybe we've all just been brainwashed too long into thinking that the only way to go is public school.
Also, just to bring up a past point time not being wasted at schools here. Well, this isn't research, but when I consider that I went to school for 10 years, and only from 8 to 1.30pm each day, and yet ended up being on same footing as the average high-school graduate in the US, then either I'm superintelligent (which I know I'm not) or the US public schools aren't as effective as they could be - which equals wasted time to me.
I wish I had something controversial to say to liven things up a bit, but I've got nothing. Right now I am planning to homeschool my children. My main reason is because I want them to have an excellent education and I know that between the two of us, my husband and I have the intellectual wherewithal to give them that (whether we will have the necessary time, energy, and mental health I'm not so sure about). I do have a lot of strong opinions about how public school teachers are educated and managed in the US. Most of my opinions on that subject would be offensive to almost everyone I know, so I won't go into them here. I'm not sure even you want to get that controversial on your blog, Fran.
Anyway, the social goings-on in public schools today do alarm me (although not as much as the academic goings-on). I don't want to protect my children from this wicked world so much as prepare them for it, but I do think that protection is an important part of that job. I believe school negates a parent's ability to guide their children, to a certain extent anyway. The thing about kids is that they are essentially pack animals (like wolves, not like mules). When you send them off to school for 6+ hours a day, they get the message that the group of kids they spend all that time with is their pack. They will vie with each other for status in the pack; status is won by imitating whoever in the pack has the most status. If the leaders of their pack are taking AP classes and playing soccer, your kid is going to want to do that. Hooray! But if the leaders are having sex and taking drugs, your kids will want to follow suit. Basically the parents become irrelevant during the teenage years (and thanks to television, those start when? At 8?). Now the influence of the Church can temper this, but with some kids it isn't enough. Being the self-important control freak that I am, I want to be the one who has the most influence over my child's behavior, even if I am a little odd. Better weird than boring, I say.
That's all I have for now.
Well, I have to admit Julie, you got me curious! But, really you just sound a lot like me. Quality of education is definitely my No. 1 reason wanting to home-school, while the social going-ons would be my second in many ways. Wait a second...that's exactly how I posted it. Hmm, well and that's how I see it.
I've wondered a few times whether I'd want to home-school if I was in Germany. While I'd still be a bit concerned about the going-ons at school, I'd probably be fine sending them to school, due to the overall better quality (though frankly, Germany's education is going down hill these days as well, and is definitely nowhere close to how good education could be - it's merely better than the US). Also, they spend less time in school in Germany, which would allow for more time with family, and positive family influence. And a lot of the circus going on here doesn't exist in Germany (no prom, no pledges of allegiance, and usually no guns)...
Anyway, I'm in the US, and I have a choice, and home-schooling sounds right to me for now. I feel pretty confident that our kids can have a good education, while also being well-prepared for the world, and well adjusted socially.
And that's why you should move to Austin, so we can be homeschooling buddies.
Actually Fran,
I just read an article in Time Magazine that seemed to indicate that more days (but fewer hours per day) like Germany does, leads to better retention of what is taught. However, it costs more money - for buses, lighting, heating/cooling. Plus it requires Mom (or some parent) to be home half the day - or the family's child care costs go up. - The majesty of the mighty dollar...
The difference may be that I'm American and you're German (and the different cultures that we grew up in), but I totally get why the family got asylum. I understand why you might disagree with the family's individual reasons for wanting to homeschool, but I can also think of some reasons why they would be qualified for asylum in America. Americans consider freedom of religion a human right. If your government forces you (under threat of the dissolution of your family or loss of personal liberty) to send your children to a school that promotes(teaches) doctrine/propoganda/lifestyle, call it what you will, that is contrary to the dictates of your conciencious that government is abusing your human rights.
That said, the family that got asylum is probably doing what is best for their family, those people who are staying in Germany and fighting the system, are probably doing more to improve the educational freedom (and thereby also freedom of personal determination) for Germans as a whole.
Well, Aliza, the stuff you point out just makes me want to home-school even more. It's ridiculous how much money already goes into US schools with such poor results. The whole school-bus thing is just another thing that drives me nuts here, though I realize that due to usual supercrappy public transportation and lack of safe bike lanes, there isn't much else left. I grew up riding my bike to school, starting in first grade.
Anyway, as for the asylum thing, I don't think my German background matters at all. The reason why I think it's ridiculous that they got asylum is because a lot of people who are farfarfar less free, and have far greater threats to their family than this family, DO NOT get asylum to the US. I think it's ridiculous that the US gives token-asylum to this family, who all in all has it about as good as life can get, except that they can't home-school. I do think those laws should be changed in Germany, and I definitely don't think a parent who doesn't want a kid in public school warrants taking away the kids, but REALLY, give me a freakin' break. There are people in the world who TRULY suffer lack of freedom. This is just stupid to me, and is mainly just about that family trying to push their home-schooling agenda that way. There are more effective ways to do that. And if it was all that terrible, why not go back to Canada (where the mom is from, right?). Nope...it has to be all drama.
Julie, I'd love to be home-schooling buddies with you. I really hope that wherever we end up I can find some cool home-schooling families. I definitely don't want the religious zealot families who only home-school because their kids may hear about homosexuality in school or something.
As a parent that has homeschooled 1-3 kids for the past 6 years while caring for younger children as well but who will be sending all of her kids to public school this year, I think I can add a unique perspective to this argument.
First, I absolutely DESPISE the public school system...but I actually loved school as a kid. I was always top of my class, straight A's, in talented and gifted programs, etc. School was very easy for me and really stroked my ego because I was always told how smart and talented I was etc. But you know what? I never learned to work hard and challenge myself because I never needed to. And I gauged my intelligence/worth/etc. on being smarter or better than other people rather than whether or not I was living up to what I knew was my own potential.
I never thought I would homeschool and thought most homeschooled kids were weird (I've since decided that the weirdness factor has more to do with the parents--if the parents are weird the kids are usually weird regardless of where they are schooled). But while at BYU I became a nanny for a family that had just adopted a sibling group from Russia and also had 2 other adopted children. They were homeschooling and the mom came from a family of 12 and they were all home schooled for the entire 12 grades and they were an amazing family.
I opened my mind to it as a real possibility at that point and when my daughter was a baby I attended a convention by the LDS Home Educators Association and began learning about different educational philosophies and really got excited about it.
The book that cinched the deal for me was "Dumbing us Down" by John Taylor Gatto (who won awards for teacher of the year in the State of New York so his indictment of the education system coming from someone within the system really hit me)
I decided I would homeschool my kids for as long as it felt right. I never worried about socialization; I made sure my kids had opportunities to interact in homeschool groups, sports teams, music lessons and conferences, as well as church and family, made them approach and interact with checkers at the store, bank tellers, etc.
Because of my homeschooling I was able to take some of my kids to Germany in the off season and sent my daughter to a week long horseback riding camp with her cousin--everyone spoke German, no one was Mormon, and obviously came from a different culture and she had to learn how to eat different foods (or at least how to politely decline(-: ) I think that experience taught her more about the world than any experience she might have in public school.
That said, my daughter and I have NEVER had an easy time of homeschooling. We are too much alike I think and it has always been a struggle to work well together. As Fran mentioned, I thought it would be a cop out to send her to school just because it would be easier so we kept at it. But then I realized the energy I was spending in conflict with her was getting in the way of the time I spent educating and caring for my younger children. I finally put her in public school the second half of 3rd grade and I have continued homeschooling my boys.
My boys have been MUCH easier to homeschool for whatever reason and I have really enjoyed it. I think that homeschooling them could still be a good option but it gets exponentially more difficult to keep up with multiple grade levels. I know many families that are very organized and have pulled it off that I really admire but I am not one of them. This past year I began doing some freelance writing and working on developing some of my own talents and the kids' school work fell by the wayside. That, along with moving to a rural area where it is much more difficult to provide opportunities for them to interact with others has led me to the decision that putting them in public school will be the best solution for us for now.
I plan to volunteer at the school twice a week and do preschool at home with my younger kids.
It is still VERY difficult for me to watch some of the things that go on in the public schools and I try to counteract it by discussing them with my children and pointing out alternatives, etc.
In my ideal world I would have the money to hire the finest private tutors and send them on all kinds of specialized trips/experiences/challenges to push them to develop to their highest potential, unfortunately, that won't be happening anytime soon.
But I will absolutely defend any parents' right to educate their children at home or any other way they think best for their families and there is a good possibility we may try some other forms of alternative education as they get older (dual enrollment/private schools/early graduation/ etc) depending on their individual talents and desires.
Well, thanks for the perspective Reni. I guess, your example would support my point that probably the most important is to figure out what's right for the individual child and go with that.
I definitely don't want to get so hung up on one way or another that I'm not open to change when change is maybe what's needed. I just think a lot of people are also so stuck in thinking that public school is the only way to go that I can't help but challenge that view. And I really don't think it's the only way to go, or the best. But at times it may be the right one for your child or family.
By the way, the flexibility to go to Germany at more convenient times than usually summer break, is also one factor that makes me want to home-school. I can't imagine how we'll ever afford flying to Germany as a family if the only time we can go is June, July or August - the most expensive times to fly!
I think to point out that if you're in the middle of nowhere it gets really hard to creates those encounters outside the home. I guess in that instance, online-schooling wouldn't really help much either (with the socialization factor).
By the way, since Kari brought up the idea of online-schooling being bad. I do think that's a valid point to consider, but since a lot of those classes don't involve sitting in front of the computer for hours, and since schools aren't doing much better these days with watching a movie in every other class and that kind of crap, and computer usage it the way of the future...I'm not so opposed to it. I'd rather have my kids get their fix through education during the day, and then go play with friends, or go out on field trips than have them in school, and then come home playing computer games, texting (not like we'll have that issue since I'm not really in favor if my kids having cell phones), hanging out on myspace etc. Again, I think how much media your kids use/see/are exposed to is a matter of parental involvement. I actually think being in schools, with peer pressure that's hard to counter (like wanting a cell phone because everyone else has one, texting, myspace blablablabla), your kids are more likely to get lost in the cyperworld than when they take courses online.
I've really only briefly given homeschooling much thought because overall Troy and I both had good experiences in public schools. Now that Seth is in school I've given public education more thought and what I've concluded based on no scientific research whatsoever is that our schools are failing because our families are failing. School is only as important to our kids as we make it to be. My mom was always volunteering at school, right up to my senior year. I help out with Seth as much as I can with 2 other kids and one family car. I know my kids and your kids and Kari's kids and the children of the other women who responded will all succeed because we love them and expect them to succeed. I think it's parents like us that need to have our kids in public schools because we're the ones who can make a difference and can change the atmosphere that our children and their peers are learning in. We can share our motherly influence with kids that don't get it anywhere else. I'm all for homeschooling if that's a person's choice and that's what's best for the child. It's just not for me, not at this point in my life anyway.
Fran the article referred to multiple families and the one with the mother from Canada is one of the families sticking it out in Germany and fighting to force a change in the law.
I agree that there are those who suffer horrendous things making them worthy of asylum. I also know that they are getting it, because I've gone to school and church with them in Utah. I don't think that those who get asylum because their options are to see their family torn apart (and then indoctrinated by the state contrary to their religious beliefs) or to allow the State to indoctrinate their children contrary to their religious beliefs are getting “token” asylum, just because others apply for asylum after watching their family members be raped and/or murdered. I do however suspect that the line for approval was much shorter in Germany than it is elsewhere, because the likelihood of individual human rights coming into conflict with German law is almost non-existent, whereas the deprivation of human rights is much more egregious and common place in other regions of the world.
On a more cheery note, I really appreciated the insight from Reni and Sarah. I think parents make a bigger difference in the quality of education than the amount of money spent (which is not a good reason not to invest financially in our children’s education). I’m just saying more money doesn’t automatically equal better education, but more parental involvement does. Utah gets a bad rap for having some of the lowest per capita spending on public education, but education tends to be important to our families and this is reflected in our over-all test scores. We also have the freedom in Utah to seek out the public (or other) school that best meets the individual needs of our children. When I was in High School, I lived outside the neighborhood boundaries of my school, so the school provided me with a bus pass for the public transit system – because the school bus didn’t go out to my house.
Your comment, “I just think a lot of people are also so stuck in thinking that public school is the only way to go that I can't help but challenge that view,” made me laugh Fran, because sometimes I feel the need to speak for the other side just because there is one and I’ve got to make sure others are aware of it.
As for the flying in the off-season, it seemed like my sister had one or two friends each year that missed some school (and had to make arrangements with the teacher to make up the work) because their families were flying to Israel or Europe or somewhere. This is possible to do if your child doesn’t have a regular truancy problem.
Ok, so I posted a reply earlier on, and somehow it didn't work. Lucky for everyone else, because now you get the shortened version.
I agree that:
1. Children with loving, involved parents will probably do fine no matter what schooling.
2. The world, and probably, especially children, need our good, loving influence.
3. Failing families probably cause a lot of the problems we face in school today
4. It's possible to travel while having a child in public school.
5. parents should have the right to not send their child to school, and that taken children away from decent parents simply because they do not want to send them to school is wrong, even oppressive and those laws ought to be changed!
Now, here is what I disagree with.
1. While I think my children will be fine in public school if I'm involved enough, with the examples given, I don't see how that beats home-schooling. Assuming that I'd volunteer one day a week in the class of our (planned) children, I'd be in school 4-5 times a week. Then, after sitting in school trying to help my child as well as everyone else, I'll go home with my kids to spend more time on homework and help as needed. So, basically, if I did that, I'd spend ALL day EVERY day on education/helping my kids. That sounds about 10 times more exhausting than home-schooling. It's nice to think we're helping others, but if I want to have a meaningful family life, I think I'd rather put my family first in a logical, effective way, and then we have time to help and serve others. If I can take care of my children's education in half the time that public schooling would, I think that leaves us far more time to reach out to others in a meaningful way than me hanging out in school.
2. Which brings me to my second objection. I do think failing families create a lot of problems for us today, but I think it's only a small problem in the quality of public education. I think public education sucks because we have poorly educated teachers along with a poorly designed school and teaching system. School does not leave room to cater to individual learning styles or needs (which means parents have to fill those gaps on top of the gaps that come from teacher's lack of skill). I hate to talk badly about teachers, because I feel many of them sincerely strive to do their best, taking on a job that is a lot of work, stress, responsibility and hardly any pay. But sorry...how much do you really know on a subject matter after getting a Bachelor's??? Nothing. Which is why I feel confident I can do at least just as well as the average teacher.
3. Others need us, but I don't know that school is the best place for me to influence the world, or for my kids to be an influence for good. Especially when I feel they're still easily influenced themselves. I do think this is a very important thing to consider though. I know, while I was in school, I did influence my friends for good many times. I remember one specific occasion where my close 3 friends considered trying pot, and didn't because they hated to think how I would think of them for doing that (they told me all this after they had decided to NOT give it a try - I had no clue). I often hang out with people who smoked pot left and right of me, no one ever offering me anything because they knew my standards. I never struggled in my life to say no to anything. But that was me, and I really don't think I was the typical kid at all. I've just always had my own mind. Influence? Yes. But, I'm not sure about time and place.
4. Flying to Germany. Yes, it can be done, but I bet your friends didn't make those trips regularly. It probably was a once in a decade or so opportunity and they probably missed a week. I'm planning on yearly trips to Germany, hopefully for 4-8 weeks each year. With potentially 4-5 kids (in school) that would really be a hassle to arrange each year. But again, the flexibility factor of home-schooling is not a major reason for me to choose this. It's just a really nice perk.
Lastly, the asylum factor. OK, yes asylum is possible, but can only be granted a) if you're IN the US already or b) about to enter. And it's actually just another way of immigrating to the US. If you look at the numbers of how many people immigrate through asylum status, and who's denied immigration in general...I think those things speak for themselves. When the average person living in a country where you have to fear for your life, where you get raped repeatedly, slaughtered even, harrassed, lose your home/possessions or simply can't even take care of your family because of a failing government, oppressive regime, or because of your religion/race/ethnicity...and you don't get to enter the US, but some family from Germany who can't home-school then to me that's not just 'token asylum' it's outrageous. We don't let the people who probably really are deprived of basic freedoms enter, but hey, let's bring in that German family. It makes for a great news article, and makes the US look like the great supporters of freedom. I think it's a bunch of crock, and it makes me really angry. I've read about 5 different articles on that same situation in Germany, so I guess I got some stuff mixed up, but the family who left and demanded asylum...they're just ungrateful to me. I'm glad they're no longer in Germany. I'd rather have my country be rid of idiots like that. I just have no sympathy for this. I understand the legal issues, and I do think the laws should change, but really, considering that most kids in the world can't get ANY sort of education, I think it's good to come off of your high horse, think about what God would really want, and stop whining. Urgh...
I think you have thought about this a lot and you should absolutely give homeschooling a shot. Now is the time to start researching approaches/philosophies/methods and thinking about what curricula you want to use.
However, I hate to rain on your parade but if you think homeschooling will not be all-encompassing you are in for a surprise. You need to remember that it isn't just the actual instruction time for each kid (which when you have 3 or 4 kids at different levels can be daunting in and of itself) but it is also the research and preparation time that takes as much or more additional time. Think of how much prep time a teacher of a single grade level takes to prepare their lessons? And you will be responsible for preparing that amount 3-4 times over for each different grade level (you can combine topics and ages somewhat but you still have to have individualized assignments for each age) in addition to figuring out how to occupy your young children while you are teaching the older kids.
It can be done and the results can be amazing, and honestly, homeschooling 1 young child (esp. at Kindergarten and first grade level) even with another youngster is VERY doable. Really only requiring a tad more of your time and preparation than you would normally spend with your child. But I found as I had more children and they got older I couldn't keep up with them and all they needed and I felt they were actually being deprived of experiences because I couldn't give it to them.
I think it has more to do with my personality than anything else but maybe if you go into it with a more realistic understanding of what it entails you will be more successful than I was.
Many of the homeschooling sites make it sound so easy, and maybe once you've done it for awhile and get a system down it is, but for me it was A LOT of work. I enjoyed most of it. I think reading about education and learning etc. was very interesting. But it becomes your life and your identity. You become a "Homeschooler" which I always hated. Especially because I didn't do it to shelter my children either but having to always defend myself and my reasons was really draining.
And it does make you more of an outcast and an oddball and I know you already struggle with feelings of alienation anyway.
I really am not meaning to discourage you. (I actually wish I had been able to pull it off) But just want to give you a more realistic idea of what you are really choosing.
It is not easy to be in the minority, which is not a reason for not doing it, but it does make it more difficult.
And all of you reading this thread really should read the book I mentioned earlier "Dumbing us Down" by John Taylor Gatto. Even if you feel like public school worked for you you might recognize some things you were taught that maybe weren't so great.
Public schools were started (the first ones were in Prussia (Germany) interestingly enough) to create a submissive/obedient and somewhat skilled middle class. It was never meant to create leaders and independent thinkers. It creates sheep and that is what it was designed to do. Independent thinkers and trendsetters are not rewarded in public schools. People who do what they're told in the manner they are told are the ones who do well and that is why I did not want my kids schooled in that environment. I want them to think outside of the box according to their conscience and not based on any system.
Another book I read for you LDS folks(I attended a lecture by the author at that homeschooling convention I mentioned earlier) is called "Revealed Educational Principles and the Public Schools" by Jack Monnet.
In it he clearly documents how during the early history of the church the Brethren were opposed to government run schools and advised the church members not to send their children to them but because the people would rather send kids for free rather than pay to continue sending their kids to church run schools the church schools were eventually shut down.
It provides some great insight regarding the churches view of education particularly in the early days.
I can recommend some good resources for curriculum and info if you are interested.
Yeah, I'll take recommendations, but it seems like my plans of how to tackle home-school are different from yours, Reni. Anyway, I'm not discouraged at all, and I don't mind being an oddity. Am I not already? I don't like feeling culturally alienated, but nothing has ever kept me back from doing all the things that I, Fran, want to do - no matter how weird others thought I am.
I'm definitely not unaware of the time and energy home-schooling can/will take. I do think that the first 1-4 years need not be as hard and dramatic as some probably make it, but I'm definitely not sure about what comes after that. I think using online-schooling is really my top solution to my fears of that at the time, along with a goal and hope to develop early independent learning skills in my children. I want them to be able to read and process information as quickly as they can. That would leave more time for focusing on different kids with different stuff, and teach my kids one of the most important things ever - acquiring knowledge by themselves. I think my function in that would just to guide, and correct and explain as needed. Urgh...
I have ideas, but obviously, reality may look quite different and I may find myself overwhelmed and surprised at how hard the whole thing is. Either way though, I feel confident I can tackle the first few years, and then find a work-able solution after that. At any rate, my children won't be kicked out the house into the world at 5. :)
Home schooling seems to be the hot topic these days. There are a number of families that do it her in PA in my ward. All for very different reasons. I admire those that are able to successfully home school and give their kids well rounded education and exposure to experiences that school can't offer. Good luck is this becomes your venture.
Congrats on expecting. I hadn't checked your blog in awhile. That's very exciting.
I really liked reading this topic and discussion. After wading back and forth for years, I am determined to homeschool. The main reason why I shy away from it is the sheer responsibility and work involved. But, I've learned that Hard Things are often worth it.
My oldest is only 6, but I often find, like Rachel, that homeschooling already consumes me. I really haven't had time to pursue other hobbies, but, luckily, I have determined that homeschooling and learning are my new hobbies.
My decision to homeschool comes back to this: giving my children the chance to shine and excel and not be held back into mediocrity. I want my children to learn Leadership skills. For that reason, I don't do "school at home". I can't be a drill-sergeant and a mom, so I don't try to do both. I don't follow a curriculum... although it is available if they choose to do some of it. I don't push them into learning or doing things they don't want to do or aren't ready for. But I do encourage learning...for the Love of Learning. And these kids learn things every day! Right now, I'm mostly focusing on life experiences, learning between good/bad, right/wrong, and learning how to contribute to the Family Work.
Right now when they are young, I can introduce topics/subjects to them. Later on, when they are ready to take it on themselves (and we have already discussed with my 6yo how it's HIS job to educate himself), they will. They pray in Spanish or Korean (with help). They do art projects, play musical instruments, play outside, play together (they have a great sibling relationship).
Fran, I know you've read a bunch. But here are some I've looked into...some more than others.
I read excerpts from the "Dumbing Us Down" website, not the book.
Thomas Jefferson Leadership Education
Montessori methods
Waldorf methods (I was looking into a Waldorf charter school here...the guy who came up with this system was German)
Charlotte Mason
The Well-Trained Mind
The Parenting Breakthrough (not about hsing, but about raising responsible kids)
Nurture Shock (Yes, I read it!)
And after reading all that, I still find myself gravitating back to Leadership Education.
How people get organized/do it all:
lapbooks (just search online)
un-schooling (just search online)
Work Boxes (again, search online)
www.latter-dayhomeschooling.com gives me that peer support so I don't feel like an outsider...and helps me see that others often struggle but keep at it
Almost anywhere you'll move, there will likely be a homeschool field-trip/playground group you can join. Prescott has 4 or 5...some are Christian, some are non-denominational, some are specific to the style of homeschooling you do. One does Spelling and Geography Bees (something that few schools participate in anymore).
I didn't home school my kids and they are odd. So, you never can tell.
I really wanted to home school my kids and was persuaded not too. The story of my life.
After I taught 5 years in CA, the lowest ranked of all the schools in the US, I wouldn't hesitate to home school.
Anyway, you and Henry are smarties, natural teachers and very supportive and your kids will probably be ready for college at 12.
I wasted more time dealing with public school which here has disdain for the parents' personal responsibility for the child. The schools are such a mess I wouldn't touch them.
You may want to look in to sometime like ECOT. You have the freedom to schedule your time the way you'd like, but you get a computer free and it keeps you on track for what the state requires for that grade level.
You could teach her the lessons in German, and still be able to take trips etc whenever you'd like.
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