I thought this was an interesting article that might promote some discussion since we've got both Europeans and Americans. And, since no one ever responds to the comments I post, I figured I need to either start the conversation or say something controversial. So, here you are:
What age is it okay for nudity? I've seen topless women in Europe just sunbathing in the park. And European guys tend to wear smaller swimsuits. I think Europeans (in general) may be much more comfortable with being naked than Americans. However, in the states I notice more nudity in normal places, like shopping centers and the zoo (though I don't think I've ever noticed anyone topless at the zoo). And, I noticed while watching "Dancing for the Stars" on television that almost every female dancer is wearing a costume that looks like lingerie.
I have seen friends and family, here in America, cover up the private parts of an infant or 2 year old child in pictures they take. My European in laws tend to let their kids run around naked more, at least at home. In Europe, it seems that people, generally, are more tolerable of children running around naked. While in America (maybe just with Mormons) it seems like nudity is almost forbidden. I'm thinking that being hypersensitive to nudity when children are young and innocent probably hyper-sensitizes them to nudity when they are older. And since teens like to push their bounds, they'll be more prone to wear less wherever they go. Then again, it could just be due to the media. Though, if Europe and America tend to be bombarded with the same type of media, why do we see a difference in the amount of nudity found in every-day situations vs at the beach or in the park?
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40 comments:
Hmm... that is an interesting question. I for one think it is kind of silly to be super sensitive about baby nudity. They are just babies! You have probably noticed that we don't care that much. (:
I really just think that the media makes girls think they have to be scantily clad to be attractive to men, so that's what they do. I've noticed that more often than not, the girls that dress that way don't have a lot of self esteem. I don't know if girls in the US have more issues with that than European girls, but I think self esteem issues are more of a contributor than our attitude towards nudidty.
My blog was hi-jacked by my husband. Nice. So, just for the record: Henry posted all that stuff about nudity.
But here is what I think: As we sexually mature, I think nudity (other than within family) becomes very inappropriate. For me modesty means to dress and behave in such a way that we do not purposely draw attention to ourselves and our bodies. So, I think a child doesn't purposely dress or behave in a way to draw attention to their bodies, because usually that implies a certain sexual maturity. The only time they could or would is if they learned this in their home or from others. Basically, I think children are naturally modest, and there is nothing immodest about their naked bodies, since nothing about their bodies should attract attention in any way.
As children mature, you can also discuss the changes taking place in our bodies, how they can distract others, and how we may become distracted, and why it's important to dress differently now (while maybe before nakedness or sleeveless shirts were not an issue).
Anyway, I think nudity, etc. in kids is fine. Sexually matured people though - I'm not cool with that. ;)
Henry, nice topic. I do notice that I don't mind running around naked or in my underwear in my apartment with my roomate around. And that in contrast when i travel with american friends they are a lot more careful about displaying their body. I don't know if that is good or bad. All i know is that i think it is important to have a healthy relationship to your body and a healthy body image (is that the right word?). And in my eyes little children really are completely innocent and i would never cover up photos of them (unless i show it at their wedding .. ha ha ). I would be careful though to post them on the internet. Just because there are all sorts of creepy people out there in the www.
Just my 2 cents... (european cents of course)
Have you been reading this article?:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/16/garden/16nudity.html?_r=3&pagewanted=1&em
I never can remember how to make links. Sorry about that.
Yes. That's the one. I am totally with Meike about not posting naked pictures on the web. Creepy people are everywhere on the world wide web.
H
P.S. Aren't your two cents worth more in Europe?
I am super-observant, aren't I? I didn't even notice the link you put in your post!
I hate to disappoint, Henry, but I really don't have any strong feelings about this. I'm not offended by the nudity of pre-pubertal children. It's so hot here, my daughter rarely wears anything but a diaper while she's at home these days. I really don't understand why some people make a big deal out of it.
I am far less comfortable with adult nudity, however. And I hate "Dancing with the Stars." It's too bad that ballroom dance is so boring that they have to try to make it exciting by removing as much of the female partner's clothes as they can get away with. Hey, was that controversial enough?
Haha! I'm with you Julie. Except, some of the dance performances on "Dancing with the Stars" is pretty darn cool to me. It's the first time we've watched some of it though. And I love ballroom dancing. However, I'm not a fan of the scantily dressed dancers either. Why does everything have to be about sex?
P.S. Henry didn't use the link you provided. You're totally observant. And I was shocked that I had missed it. After all, the New York Times is our default internet setting, and it's the first thing I see, and usually all the news I read...and yet, I missed it. So sad...
Hey, here's something I do have strong feelings about that's more apropos of your topic than ballroom dance: what about breastfeeding in public? I believe that moms should be able to nurse in public wherever they happen to be, whether they cover up or not. I'm totally biased, of course, because I've been nursing for almost 17 months now and it's obvious to me that there's nothing sexual whatsoever about nursing my daughter. I do choose to cover up in public, but I refuse to leave the room when I nurse. People have been pretty polite so far, but I get weird looks regularly.
I think that motherhood itself is isolating enough for women; why do we make it harder on them by expecting them to sequester themselves every time their baby wants to eat? And some babies just won't nurse covered up. Is it OK to punish their moms by banishing them to the mothers' lounge or the restroom, just because we aren't mature enough to get over the sight of a nursing breast? No.
hmmmm, interesting. I agree that mothers should be allowed to nurse wherever, whenever. I've gotten very comfortable with nursing pretty much wherever I am. In Germany I also noticed that women didn't cover up as much for nursing as here. For example, in Church, the girls did go to a separate room, but in there, no one covered up at all except for me...haha. Prude Fran. I guess I am becoming American.
What I think is that people should get over breasts, and being so sexualized. But, while that's not happening, I think if it's possible to nurse successfully while covering up then that may be the more considered choice. But, if the only way I could nurse my daughter was by not covering her up, and I didn't mind pulling my boob out in front of everyone then I'd probably do that, and not care what it does to others. As it goes though, I'm not particularly keen on displaying my boobs in any way at all. And they are definitely too big as for me to maybe nurse without covering up and still being discreet (as I've seen smaller chested women successfully do). So, I'd rather go to another room. However, I also have to say that I haven't minded going to other rooms so far. I haven't felt isolated because of it at all. In Church, I've been able to listen better in the mothers lounge. In wards where there are few kids, I enjoyed the peace and quiet when I was the only one nursing...In other places though, I think it'd be great if I could just nurse, without having to cover up, and feel comfortable. I usually already don't care anymore when I nurse Sophia in the car and people walk by and see my naked breast. I don't know that I'd dare do that in a restaurant though.
So I say, be considered of others when you can, but in the end do what is necessary for you and your child. If someone else ends up in trouble because they saw a nursing breast, or got offended, that is really their problem in the long run.
Julie,
I think that single people would have a more uncomfortable time with uncovered breastfeeding. So, be sensitive to them if you ever feel like going uncovered. From what I've heard, no one ever really "looks" anyway. Unless you're some creepy guy at a gas station passing by Fran's car as she's feeding Sophia.
Henry
P.S. To keep the ball rolling. Would you ever breast feed someone else's baby?
Our mothers' lounge has no air conditioning and smells like poop. I nurse in the chapel, even while the sacrament is being passed. Eeek!
Like I said, I do cover up when I nurse. I'm just more comfortable with that. But I don't mind if other women don't or can't. In Senegal, which is the most actively religious country in the world percentage-wise (Muslim), nobody covers up. And nobody, young or old, male or female, married or single, even cares. Why do we have to make such a big deal out of it here?
Would I nurse someone else's baby? Yeah, I would. When Sofia was newborn, that's what I wanted most in the world: some other woman to nurse her for a while so I could get a break.
What about you, Fran? Would you do it?
One time, a friend of mine was watching my kids when Evelynn was about 5 months old. My friend had weaned her boy 2 weeks earlier. But Evelynn wouldn't settle down for her nap, even after drinking a bottle. So, my friend nursed her for a few minutes! And Evelynn went right to sleep! My friend was surprised that she even had some milk left.
I think they used to do that in the old days. They called them nurses. I guess that's why its odd to think of a guy being a nurse.
Henry
I think they were called wet nurses but I could be wrong, as I often am. Some of the best nurses I've had have been men. Anyway, I've given a lot of thought to breastfeeding in public. Because there is such a stigma attached (or at least I imagined one to be) I was very nervous nursing Seth away from home and since it was also very hard I gave up soon and experienced a lot of guilt. Two kids later I'm past that but I really think we need to help moms realize that showing a little skin isn't bad. Especially if you're flat like me and there isn't much there to begin with :)
Oh, and I love watching little kids run around naked. They're so happy with who they are and don't have all issues about their bodies they pick up later in life. By then of course they should be modest.
Oh I have got to add my two cents to the mix hr! And while I'm at it, I'll add another two Euro Cents for my German husband. When Tobi has his German friends and thier little brothers (all guys in their twenties or teens) and I nurse in the same room, covered up by a blanket, nobody bats an eye. When it's just us at home, and I happen to nurse uncovered in front of our two two-year-old sons, Tobi totally freaks out, bcause he'd rather not have memories of his mother's or his aunts' naked breasts and he doesn't want me to do that to our sons. While I think the needs of the baby to eat trump any issues others have with public nursing (a man can choose not to gauk, a baby can't choose not to eat) I find trying to deny the sexual nature of the breast, just because it also has a non-sexual purpose a bit rediculous. If you have a baby to nurse, you must be familiar with the role the breasts played in the process by which you got that baby. Women shouldn't be sequestered to feed their babies, nursing covered the form of the breast isn't even discernible, like it is when a woman is dressed in say a t-shirt, so freaking out about people nursing in public when covered is just silly. Nursing uncovered in public for the woman's convenience, not so cool - for specific needs of a baby, well that's a different story. No man should have keys to lock the mother's lounge and all mother's lounges should have comfortable atmospheres (especially in LDS churches. Since we believe mothers have a the primary responsibility in nurturing children, we should do everything we can to support them in that role.)
Now about nudity in childhood. I think that waiting until your child is old enough to be sexually aroused or arousing to teach them to dress in a way that will be modest when they are that old is a bit too late, and maybe even a bit mean to them.
That was a lot of cents Aliza. I don't think you have to wait to teach modesty until children hit puberty. However, you don't have to make a toddler dress the way an adult would, and I don't think you should. The way I wouldn't put my kids in heels, bras and the like, I probably also don't need to cover them up the same. But, just because I don't cover them up the same, doesn't mean I can't teach them about our bodies as they mature, and make changes as they mature. I think it's a gradual process, with gradual changes. Not something that happens over night. ;)
I agree with you that it's nice to be considered of others when we whip out our boobs. If for the majority it's disturbing to see an uncovered breast, and you don't have to have it uncovered, it's nice for others to cover up. However, I still think our society is totally oversexed, and the breast you claim had an important role in the making of the baby may not have the same sexual role in other cultures...so maybe it's just us and our mindsets.
I don't think it's ridiculous at all to separate the sexual function of the breast from the non-sexual one, namely nursing. The human mind is, in most cases anyway, capable of making such fine distinctions. As I have already mentioned, there are many cultures that can dissociate the two without any difficulty or undesirable side effects. Why should Western society be incapable of this?
The weird thing is, breasts are everywhere in our culture. We see them in various states of undress on TV and in movies, in ads of all media, in music videos. Soft-core pornography is commonplace today; we shrug it off for who knows what reason. Yet when a mom nurses a baby uncovered in view of the public, we feign moral outrage and start talking about consideration for others' feelings. Why?
I think you'll have to go very far before you find a mother who has no natural modesty, who is eager to show one and all just how well-endowed she is. If a woman is nursing uncovered in public, she has a good reason. Maybe her baby just won't nurse covered up and she'd like, just once, to hear and maybe even participate in the Sunday School lesson for the first time in six months. Don't mothers in Zion have a right to be nurtured by the good word of God and enjoy the fellowship of the saints, just like everyone else?
If they do, the women in my stake haven't gotten the message. If they had, there wouldn't be a dozen of them cramming themselves into the mothers' lounge every Sunday, nursing their babies covered up, standing up.
I cover up when I nurse in public because I am a modest person, not because I want to be considerate of others' feelings. To be sure, when I am in someone else's home, I always ask if I may nurse without leaving the room. But I will never cover up in front of my own children. I wouldn't want to "do that to them." I want my children to grow up without the notion that breastfeeding is dirty or shameful. Considering the culture they'll be growing up in, though, that will be an uphill struggle.
To clarify, I meant that I will never cover up in front of my own children in my own home. I'm not so radical that I would nurse uncovered wherever I happen to be, just because my kids are around.
Interesting...I think you have a great point with the soft porn stuff. I oppose soft porn, not just because it's wrong, but because this display of our bodies has subtle but often disastrous affects on people. I want people to cover up and be sensitive to the damage we can cause when we mistreat sexuality. For that same reason, I would cover up nursing if feasable. Not because it's dirty or shameful. I definitely think people should learn to dissociate the nursing breast and the sexual breast. But, while that is not the case yet, and while I realize that for some people (and I'm talking really only about guys here) this may still be a work in progress, I'd rather be considerate and cover up if I can and not make life harder for them.
Now, I have to say, if there is any woman out there at all that would take offense to seeing my naked nursing breast: I couldn't care less! If I wanted to nurse uncovered, and there are only women present, I'd do it without thinking twice. And if anyone was offended, I honestly wouldn't care. That's their problem. Actually, the Relief Society president of my home ward in Germany, would breast feed uncovered during Relief Society stuff. So, maybe this is more of an American issue than an overall Western issue? I also can't really see people overall in Germany to get worked up over a mother breast feeding publicly (uncovered or covered).
So, my consideration I guess is only for those of the opposite sex, who live in a very sexualized world and may not yet be able or comfortable with seeing a nursing breast and not thinking anything but appropriate nothingness. For those guys, who want to be good, and struggle, I'm willing to cover up, if I can...or leave the room if necessary. Also, I myself am not comfortable to display my nursing breast in front of guys. So, I cover up for me and for the guys.
Leaving the room though, if you can cover up is just plain silly.
I think there is nothing wrong ever to nurse in any place you wish, if you're covered up. That should NEVER be an issue. I have not asked others once if it's ok for me to nurse without leaving the room. I just start nursing and say "I hope you don't mind". I've done this frequently. I would do the same in Church, except I usually don't need to nurse Sophia in Church anymore, or only ever had to nurse her maybe once while in Church.
So, in front of girls, I only cover up while it's not a problem. I think I'm ready to not cover up if it gets too much of a hassle, because I really don't care what the other girls think. While guys are around I'll cover up because it makes me uncomfortable and because I'm worried about the guys. If one day our society is past getting all worked up over breasts, then I may change that. And, lastly, I always nurse wherever I want if I cover up.
oh, and I totally agree with you that it's silly that people get worked up over nursing moms more than all the soft-porn you see everywhere. It's ridiculous.
You're so cool, Fran. I think we pretty much agree on this.
My view on public breastfeeding is colored by the fact that my baby was a nursing addict. For the first six months of her life she nursed every 45 minutes, except when she was asleep, in which case she needed to be latched on the whole time. She wouldn't accept any substitutes: no pacifiers, no bottles, nothing. So I was nursing during every church meeting. Sometimes twice. I started out going to the mothers' lounge, but I had to get over it, just out of spiritual necessity. After she hit six months, she could go about 90 minutes without coming unhinged, but that was still at least two nursing sessions during church.
My blood just boils when friends tell me that they nursed their baby in a bathroom stall or something because they were afraid to do it in public. I would like our society to get to the point where our delicate sensibilities are no longer offended by nursing mothers. The sooner the better. How do we do it?
Haha, yes - our delicate sensibilities shouldn't be offended by nursing mothers.
It's indeed very sad if women nurse in a bathroom stall or the like for fear to nurse somewhere else. I've contemplated a bathroom stall once, in the very beginning, when I was at an outlet mall. Once I walked into the bathroom, I dismissed that option.
I think the problem is two-fold though with this. Women need to be courageous and do what they feel is necessary. I realize this is easier for some than others. To me it seems to come quite naturally to just do and say what I think. I know for others it's not that easy, and they are more sensitive to others thoughts and opinions. I guess there's a perk to having my personality after all.
I think the other problem is society, and how we treat mothers (nursing or not). One thought I had as you mentioned very religious cultures like the Senegal, is that the key to a healthy relationship to our bodies and sexuality and all that stuff is found when we treat those things 'right'. I guess the question is 'what's right?'. I think sexualizing everything as we do in our culture, and having ready displays and images of sexual nature are too much and not right. It's not healthy because it's overdone. I think we can also underdo, by vilifying sexuality and our bodies, and pretending like there is nothing going on at all. I think, we'll find peace with our bodies and sexuality when we respect our bodies as God has outlined for us, when we live chaste, and modest.
For some reason, some people think when I suggest those things that I think sex is taboo or shouldn't be discussed or that my kids will become those weird-o people who have no healthy relation to sexuality and their bodies. But, I think as I teach them what God has taught us, the opposite will be true. After all, one thing God has taught is that he created man (and woman), and they were good. And to be one flesh, and to multiply and replenish. Clearly God thinks our bodies are good, and sexuality is good. I can teach my children this. But I can also teach his other commandments and that it's the proper timing and treatment of ourselves and our sexuality that brings happiness and peace, or self-esteem problems and sadness.
Just in case anyone is interested in the topic of modesty, I can recommend two books: The American Paradox by David G. Myers, and The Return to Modesty by Wendy Shalith. Neither one of the author is a Mormon by the way. So, this is thought from the "world".
Just to make sure you all understood me, I didn't mean to insinuate that there was no seperation between the sexual and non-sexual functions of the female breast. I feel that distinction every time I nurse. I'm just not sure that distinction is as easily discerned by weened males of the species and I'm not entirely sure that this difficulty is entirely a result of the greater emphasis society puts on the sexual function of the female breast. I haven't ever talked with a Muslim man about how he feels about uncovered nursing, so I don't know whether or not they are as unphased about it as what I've read here and in books would lead one to believe. I have however talked with German men who have grown up in a society where it is WAY more acceptable than in Utah (where I grew up) and they wouldn't try to have a women arrested for public indecency or anything, but they do appreciate it when a nursing mother covers up (it surprised me that they even cared).
I don't think covering up while nursing teaches a child that breastfeeding is dirty or shameful. I'm the oldest of 6 breastfed children. From my exposure to nursing in my youth, I was of the opinion that nursing was a special thing between a mother and her baby and definitely something I want to do. I never saw a nursing breast until I went to Germany when I was about 20, before then I had just always figured that a blanket was a standard piece of nursing equipment.
I also thought it was really weird that women I talked with in Germany felt naked nursing breasts were justified, because porn was pretty well accepted in their society. Because I do make a distinction between the sexual and non-sexual functions I didn't like them classed together that way. Porn is a disrespectful use of the human body. Sex with a spouse is a good, but private use of the human body. Nursing is also a wonderful and intimate use of the female body. While it needen't be as private an event as sex, I'm not sure Breastfeeding aught to be an entirely public event either.
I don't leave the room to nurse (except at church) if I feel I can cover up modestly. At church I enjoy the society I have with other nursing mothers in the most comfortable seat available in our building (in the mother's lounge). I appreciate that it is set up so that I can hear the whole sacrament meeting in the mother's lounge. Reading about the conditions in the church the author of the juliestblog attends, I think someone needs to let whoever is in charge of that building know some improvements need to be made - they are failing in their priesthood responsibility to support the mothers of the ward in nurturing their children (and not doing any nursing themselves, they are likely unaware of the appalling conditions).
I've never scolded another woman for choosing a more exposed style of nursing than I do, I'm not sure that would be appropriate. I do appreciate Henry hijacking Fran's blog to set up a forum for this discussion though.
Fran, I'm with you 100% about the proper approach to human sexuality. You are very wise, indeed.
KroekieMonsters, just to be clear, I don't get mad at my friends when they tell me they nursed in a bathroom stall, I get mad that our society is so prudish that they feel compelled to do that. I've never scolded anybody for their parenting decisions. Unless, that is, someone decided to hold a debate on childhood vaccination on their blog. Just a random example.
I appreciate your viewpoint. You seem more open to nursing in public than most people I know, which is great. One question, though: if you have no problem nursing in public as long as you're covered up, why not at church? A lot of my friends feel the same way and I just don't get it.
Even if our mothers' lounge were comfortable and large enough to accommodate all the women that want to use it, I still wouldn't go in there. Where I want to be when I'm at church is in the chapel singing the hymns with my husband's arm around me, or in Sunday School contributing to the lesson, or in Relief Society enjoying the friendship of lots of different women, not just the nursing mothers. I think that's my privilege as a child of God and a full-fledged member of the Church.
Well Julie, then maybe it's time for Sofia to get over her breast attachments! Just kidding. :) I think you made your point a lot clearer with this last post Aliza. And I think you have good points as well. What comes to my mind is something Elder Nelson (I think) said a while ago in the ensign on modesty. He suggested immodesty is any dress or behavior that is aiming to draw attention to ourselves. I think when mothers nurse in a certain way to make a statement, then this is probably immodest...
I have more thoughts but Sophia wants my attention. So, I'll go and be a mom now for a little bit. More to come later. :)
Thanks for mentioning Elder Nelson's definition of modesty. That is exactly why I think that nursing uncovered in public doesn't fall under the category of immodesty. A woman who is doing that isn't trying to draw attention to herself, unless she's a bona fide exhibitionist. She's just trying to feed her baby and feel like a human being at the same time. That's been my experience, anyway.
I find it very ironic that we spend so much time in church extolling the virtues of motherhood and teaching that mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children, but when women are actually performing that most sacred of callings, they are encouraged (not forced but encouraged) to shut themselves up in a little room where their access to all the blessings of Sunday worship is restricted. If your baby doesn't nurse that much, it's no big deal to spend fifteen minutes a week in there. But if your baby is like mine was, it can be very spiritually damaging. Nursing mothers deserve better.
My feelings about the mother's lounge are almost opposite of those of the Juliestblog writers, a major factor in this is that my circumstances are quite different from hers. It just so happens that my callings during my nursing periods have generally been callings that prevented me from participation in Sunday School and Relief Society anyway (like I'm a nursery leader now), and my boys' nursing schedules have also meant the majority of my time in the mother's lounge happened/happens to be during Sacrament meeting. So I have an oppertunity to pass a word with other mother's congregated in the Mother's Lounge, that I otherwise might not even see. Then I also get to sit in a chair that helps me support the weight of my growing son while I nurse him and I can listen peacefully to the sacrament talks while my husband manages our two two year-olds who struggle with 70 minutes of reverence. I find the room set aside for nursing and set up in such a way that the women can listen to the talks at least as clearly as the can in the chapel an affirmation that our church supports nursing mothers.
Because my boys tend to want their 20-45 minutes on the breast during Sacrament meeting and then they are good for the rest of the block, I can partake of the Sacrament and listen to all the talks and I am not ruffeling anybodies feathers or being deprived of any spiritual nurishment, so I think for me to not use the mother's lounge wouldn't be appropriate because I would be unnecessarily causing contention. Although once during conference when we lived in Hawaii the men hadn't unlocked the mother's lounge (I don't think men should be able to lock it, but nobody consulted me before they gave them keys), so I nursed a bit more publicly. One of the stake leaders came to me at the start of the next session to let me know the Mother's lounge had been unlocked.
Anyway, since I know not every mother's situation is the same as mine, and their first responsibility is to their child, I don't go around giving grief to other women whose situation I don't know.
KroekieMonsters, it sounds like you've got a great setup! I'm totally jealous. Maybe I'll luck out with my next baby.
I'm sure that many, if not most, of the women in the church prefer to use the mothers' lounge. And I bear them no ill will. Like you said, there's no reason to "give grief" to people who do things differently than I do. I firmly believe that women should nurse wherever they feel most comfortable. I'm just worried about the women who would rather nurse in the chapel or the Sunday School room and participate more actively in the services, but they don't because they're worried they might "ruffle some feathers." I know I'm not the only one who prefers to keep clear of the mothers' lounge. (The one in my building is pretty typical, by the way, except it's bigger than most and has more comfy chairs.)
I don't want to single you out, because this is a pretty common attitude in the Church, but why should nursing covered up in the middle of the congregation be different from nursing covered up in any other place? Earlier, you said, "freaking out about people nursing in public when covered is just silly." Why is it not silly at church?
I think we have a couple of good thoughts here in our debate, but I have to say I'm with Julie. I realize that it's important that we are kind and considerate of others. However, consideration goes in both ways. Nursing mothers who know their ward has issues with covered nursing in meetings, maybe can go somewhere else if they don't care about going somewhere else. That would be considerate on their behalf. A considerate ward wouldn't expect a nursing mother to nurse only in one designated spot, but try to support her in doing what she feels she needs to do as a mother and human being. Not judging others has long been proven to be a good thing. We truly never know what is really going on in the live of others, and it's probably best to give people the benefit of the doubt and to not take offense. But also, I agree with Julie, that if someone covers up for nursing, there really should never be an issue with where a person nurses. You usually can't even tell what's going on anyway.
I do think it may be 'immodest' to nurse in a certain spot (like sacrament meeting) just to make a point. Then you're nursing to get the attention of others and to make a statement. I don't think it should be about that, but I also think for most women it isn't like that. I know there are some women who want to promote more acceptance of public (uncovered in this case) breast feeding, and purposefully try to display what people supposedly don't want to see. I think that's lame. But, I also think it's lame when people get worked up over a mother nursing. There are so many badbad things going on in the world that need our attention. A mother who's trying to nurse her child (covered or uncovered) really should be at the bottom of the list for things to worry about. Because really, it's a good thing.
I think Julie you should keep doing what you're doing. You're not doing anything wrong. You don't want to upset anyone. You just want to participate in Church, as you ought to. If people get offended, that's there problem. Sometimes it just takes someone to start doing something different, to help everyone see that there may be many ways to do something and one isn't better or more right than the other.
Mother's lounges are a great resource for mothers and I think it's great they are there. But, I don't think their presence means that's where we OUGHT to go. I think it's just an option provided for mothers to help them if that's what they need. (It's like handicapped bathrooms - we have them, but that doesn't mean if you're handicapped you have to go to that one or else!).
To sum up my own view point, I think as long as someone covers up, they really should be free to nurse wherever they want. Anyone who is bothered by that, is the one having a problem, and the nursing mother shouldn't be concerned by that. If you want to nurse uncovered, I think it's nice to take at least the opposite sex into consideration. If it's not necessary to expose yourself to those who may have the hardest times with seeing it (likely men) then it's probably a nice thing to spare them, and it's what I would do. But in the end, I'd say the baby always comes first. If there is only one way to get your child to eat, and you can't be discreet, then...feed the baby. This is probably not the case though in most instances.
Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, I didn't say it was necessary to use the mother's lounge. I said I use it at church. It fits my needs best. I do think it would be silly for someone to freak-out over a covered nursing mother (even in Sacrament meeting). If it is impossible to cover-up while nursing, I would take into consideration a woman's personal reasons for staying in the chapel if she was inclined to share them, but in general I would lean towards it being best for her to nurse in the mother's lounge, because the non-interactive nature of Sacrament meeting and the sound systems that pump Sacrament meetings into the mother's lounges allow her to participate without being a distraction. The exposed nursing mother has a room where she can go and still participate in this sit and listen meeting. There is however no Priesthood lounge where the men could chose to go sit and listen if they find exposed nursing a distraction that detracts from their being able to receive spiritual nurishment. Sunday School with it's interactive and co-ed set-up is a difficulty I don't know how to solve if covered nursing is not an option (although I lean more towards the, Oh let the mother do her job without giving her grief). Relief Society, really - women gathering in a room labeled Relief Society or labeled Mother's Lounge, a nursing mother ought to be welcome in either one. Although a woman might find herself having to explain that it isn't possible for her to fulfill her role as the primary provider of nurture for her child under a blanket, if she chooses to nurse a baby who wont be covered during meals in the room labeled Relief Society.
So with some, I think, minor reservations which I hope I have expressed here clearly, I say "Amen" (ie I agree) with what Fran said.
Well, in our ward, you can listen to everything out in the hall way, which has very nice couches and seating by the way. So, I think if someone really can't focus because of a nursing mother, they could go somewhere else and listen! that's not to say though that I think uncovered nursing in Sacrament meeting is an ideal situation. I definitely think it would be hard on a lot of members at this point. It would be nice if it wasn't. But, for right now I think it would help to cover up.
Also, speaking of mothers lounges, which men shouldn't lock or have the keys to, I also don't think they should be set up in such a way that men cannot access them. Why is it a 'mother's lounge' anyway? In Church Henry usually takes care of Sophia, changes her diapers, gets her to sleep etc. The mothers lounge is nice if I want to nurse in a less public place, but there really isn't a good place for guys to go and take care of little kids. Lame, in my opinion. Our mother's lounge can only be accessed through the women's rest room.
Since I can't keep up with this any more and since you all are talking about breasts, I have only one comment: The distinction between sexual and non-sexual is pretty clear to me. Revealing one breast for a baby to drink from is not sexual to me. Revealing both breasts or excessive cleavage is. I just hope those with twins who feed at the same time always cover up for my sake.
Henry
Thanks, Henry. That took a lot of guts.
When was this posted? 3 years ago?
I think what makes me uncomfortable about public nudity or public displays of affection is that I don't want to be that intimate with a person. I don't mean sexually intimate. I just don't want to be in their personal circle but when I walk by someone who is naked or nearly naked, or even when their fully covering attire screams at me, I feel like my boundary was crossed before I had a chance to get out of the way. I feel forced to be part of them when I don't want to. In the old vernacular, "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." In other words, back off! Give me some space!
Having lived in cities a lot, I like customs that make me feel not pressed together with people. In SF, when people walk by you they do not make eye contact or speak. But in some remote country areas where there are few personal encounters, it is common to speak or smile or wave when passing. This was a pattern where Bob's dad came from. I feel safer in cities--people all around you, nobody acknowledging you or connecting with you. Sweet.
On the subject of public breastfeeding, as the feeder, anywhere, anytime, uncovered. As the passerby, I would prefer there to be a breast feeding area with a screen if on a bus or behind plants in a public square where passers by who don't want to be exposed to exposed breasts can walk without becoming uncomfortable.
I guess social graces are all about helping the majority of the people feel comfortable.
That's too funny Fran - there is a priesthood lounge, it's the Foyer!
Sounds like it's a good thing I'm a cover-up public feeder, since I nursed twins for 14 months, since exposed twin feeding is apparently more disturbing than exposed singleton feeding. Fran if you can handle it, I wish you twins for Henry's sake.:)Although to be honest it was easier to feed one boy at a time in public (and under cover), it just took FOREVER! And thank goodness Tobi has a skill for keeping hungry babies calm and patient.
I have to second the sentiment that men should be provided changing tables in (especially in family-centered) churches. When we always had two diapers to change, Tobi would just help me change them on the floor in an empty classroom. With Troy, he just explains that there's no changing table in the men's room and hands the baby with the full diaper to me. At least he helps with diapers at home.
Not to equate breastfeeding with peeing, but now that we've pretty much decided that women should be able to breastfeed whenever, where ever, and how ever they want to (as long as it's not two kids at a time because that would just be too much exposure:) )and the men who are subjected to the possible public exposure of female body parts with sexual and non-sexual functions just have to suck it (their embarrassment, discomfort,whatever) up; should we woman also have to be subjected to the occasional somewhat public exposure of men - as long as it's only for purposes of the non-sexual function. I mean, I don't think I know a man who hasn't at one time or another taken care of business outdoors, just because it was more convenient than finding a stall.
You've got a good point about Men peeing outdoors. I figure as long as they aren't peeing facing the highway but away from it that should be considered "covering up".
About the changing table, you probably just have to ask your bishop because we have them in all of our Men's bathrooms at church.
Henry
We do? Good to know. I thought there was only that one family bathroom. Nice.
anyway, I don't have a problem with men peeing wherever, as long as it's not literally right in front of me (or other people) or onto some property or place that people shouldn't pee on. You get the idea.
Also, I don't think we concluded that women should/could nurse uncovered wherever. I think the consensus was that as long as you're covered, you really should be able to nurse anywhere, without any comments. Not covering up would be nice if we lived in a society where that wouldn't be a problem, but it seems to be one, so I think we all agreed that it's nice to cover up if possible at least for the males. Something like that.
You're right Fran, I was just exagerating for effect. Gotta be careful though doing that when writing, it doesn't always come across as clearly.
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