Now, some of you might find this rather prudish and silly, but I have real issues with the media, and I think books are also powerful tools of media. Some people seem to wonder why we deal with certain problems in society, why guys do this or that, or why so many marriages fall apart etc. While I doubt that the media is solely responsible, I think they have a big part in the problems we deal with today, except I think we are to blame as well for bad media we allow into our lives. For those who aren't sure that the media has a hurtful influence, here are some research findings for you (that have made me the media doubter and criticizer that I am). P.S. I am just randomly putting out research facts in no particular order. All the studies were compiled in a book called The American Paradox by David G. Myers, a famous US social psychologist:
- Network programs offer about 3 violent acts per hour and 6 times as many during children's Saturday morning program.
- In 73% of violent scenes, aggressors go unpunished, in 58% the victim is shown to not experience pain, in children's programs only 5% of violence is shown to have consequences, 2/3 of violence is depicted as funny.
- Research shows that in reality most intercourse occurs among married people, but on TV and in movies most sexual acts are between non-married people.
- During average prime hours, the 3 majors networks offer approx. 15 sexual acts, words and innuendos - 1 every 4 minutes, and nearly all involve unmarried people with little concern for birth control or STD's.
- Neil Malamuth and James Check from the University of Manitoba showed men two non-sexual movies and other men saw a movie in which a man sexually overcame a woman. 1 week later when surveyed those who saw the film with mild sexual violence were more accepting of violence against women. Pornography use shows the same results.
- Men shown movies like The Texas Chain Saw Massacre not only become desensitized to brutality, but are more likely to view rape victims unsympathetically.
- In several experiments, viewing beautiful, passionate people has dampened appreciation for normal or real-life partners.
- In one study men, when shown a photo of a potential date - an average-looking young woman - those who had just been watching a TV program starring three beautiful women, rated the date as less attractive than those who hadn't watched TV. Likewise, men who had recently been gazing at centerfolds, rated average women or even their own wives/partners as less attractive.
- Viewing pornographic films simulating passionate sex also decreases satisfaction with one's own partner.
- For women, after viewing pornography, 42 % felt bad about their bodies, 1/3 felt sexually inadequate.
- As people heavily exposed to televised crime see the world as a more dangerous place, so people heavily exposed to pornography or sexually oriented films see the world as more sexual.
- Sexually explicit videos may be used to demonstrate variety and prime love-making. The benefit may, however, come at a price of heightened sexual expectations, which eventually increase dissatisfaction. Thus, one price of inflated expectations, of our mates and ourselves, is deflated satisfactions, which contribute to the increase in marital unhappiness and divorce.
- By nearly a 2 to 1 margin, Americans during the 1980's felt that sexual materials provide an outlet for bottled-up impulses. However, sexually explicit material are aphrodisiacs; they feed sexual fantasies that fuel a variety of sexual behaviors. In the hours after watching erotic films, people become more likely to engage in masturbation and intercourse. Moreover, studies show increases in frequency of sexual conversations, sex fantasies, sexual desire, and sexual dreams.
I know there will always be people who think I'm too uptight about this, and that just a little of this or that doesn't do any damage, or that things aren't as bad. But I don't believe it. I just think we are already so desensitized that just a little nudity, suggestion of sex, or very brief sex scenes are simply not that bad anymore to us. Of course it isn't - not when you have seen 10 times worse already. But then, how silly to claim that a little bit of toxin isn't bad because it's not a lot...it's still a toxic! So, I have to draw a line, somewhere, somehow. I am not always sure where I should draw it, and when. But it will be done, somehow.
So, for the last doubters, here's a quote from Ted Bundy (a serial rapist and killer):
" The most damaging kind of pornography involve sexual violence. Like an addiction, you keep craving something that is harder, harder, something, which, which gives you a greater sense of excitement. Until you reach a point where the pornography only goes so far, you reach that jumping off point where you begin to wonder if maybe actually doing it would give you that which is beyond just reading it or looking at it."
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15 comments:
I'm totally with you on this issue, and I have recently been having the same internal conversation with myself about how to determine what books I will and won't read. I've started reading more and more juvenile fiction since it seems to be more on the level that I am comfortable with. The Time Traveler's Wife bothered me in the extreme as well. I thought the idea of the book was creative and interesting, but as soon as I finished it, I told Todd that it read more to me like a sex-log than a book.
We almost always check movies out on screenit.com before we will go and watch one to see if it is appropriate, I need to look online and see if there is a website that does the same for books?
Well... I agree and I don't. I agree that we shouldn't watch or read or view pornography, and I'm personally too much of a chicken to watch movies that are horrifically violent. There is no need at all for pornography, and there is no need for movies such as The Texas Chain Saw Massacre, so in my opinion they should just get rid of them all.
When it comes to literature, I'm not as easily offended by graphic sex scenes, as long as they aren't demeaning. In The Time Traveler's Wife, there were moments where I came close to being offended, but I thought those descriptions of sex served the function of character development, and so I was fine with them. BUT I can see how people could be offended.
As to the media's being all source of evil, I also disagree somewhat. I think it goes both ways. The media hugely depends on viewers. If there are no readers, if there is no demand for a certain show, then obviously, it wouldn't get created in the future. Does demand for e.g. pornography give a media outlet the right to supply it? THAT is another question entirely. It would be lovely if media leaders were responsible enough to have morals and standards... and maybe some of the research results you've pointed to could be used to enforce media morality laws in that direction.
But again, media cater to needs. The main problem I believe is not the fact that the bad stuff is out there to watch (honestly, it doesn't tempt me nor has it ever, even when I was a teenager). The problem is the disintegration of society and the fact that parents don't teach their children right values.
I am shocked at the amount of violence in kids' shows. But I'm more shocked at the amount of parents who allow their children to watch it.
So you see, in my opinion, the problem isn't media in the first place. The problem is people. Of course, I'm sure the media can feed into a person's pornogrpahy craving, making that person spin out of control. But I do think it's a decision and any person can resist if they so wish.
Getting rid of bad media doesn't solve the problem. I think we need a healthy dose of media education in our societies and at home. Like I said, we have our free will and if we teach our children to be smart in what they watch or read, I'm confident they will make good decisions. That's the best we can do.
oh, I agree Isa. We as parents and people need to be responsible. At the same time it's hard at times to avoid things, when you're bombarded with certain images left and right, wherever you go and look.
But anyway, my point was precisely the one of avoidance and personal responsibility. And my one gripe was that we may all acknowledge that pornography is bad, but no one can tell me where the line is. If I'd see some of those scenes from Time Traveler's Wife depicted with images, in the graphic detail they were...would you watch it? Would you be ok with future sons, or Jonni watching it? You say it doesn't affect you, but my point is that all research points towards us being affected by these things all the time, often without us noticing. And they don't affect us for the better...To me, to read stuff just for character development isn't worth it. And in the end, with this particular book, the characters got lost to me in all the sex. I just really don't see how THAT much detail helps character development.
I say, let's start a book burning!
I say, let's hear some real comments, Meike, instead of cynical jokes just because you happen to disagree with me. If you disagree, make your case.
Well, you make a good point. What IS pornography? I know a lot of members here in Finland who love watching Sex and The City. To me, that's an absolute no-no, but others say there isn't anything too bad in it. Then there were mothers who told me that would never allow their teenage daughters to read the Twilight series. So hmmm. I really don't know. If you watch a movie and there is a beautiful love scene... is that pornography...? Probably not, at least not to me. But if that love scene turns into a demeaning and low-low-taste humping (skuz me) parade, well, it's probably pornography.
The Time Traveler's Wife (TTTW) is actually being made into a movie, so the question you ask may not be so far off. Would I watch the sex scenes, should they show them? No. Would I want Jonni to watch them? Well, if he wants to, he can go ahead. (BUT that's easy for me to say because I know he would NEVER in a hundred years watch something like that). Would I want my sons (or daughters) to watch it? NEVER or they would be in BIG BIG TROUBLE.
Anyway. I don't know if I have a double standard. With literature, I just am not as easily offended as I am with watching a movie. Maybe that's because I have little imagination. Or maybe that's because I automatically edit out while reading. Eg, I skipped ahead most of the detailed sex stuff in TTTW.
By the way, I'm interested in your reasoning behind asking only about my future sons. There seems to be some kind of misconception that men are more easily drawn toward pornography than women. I actually don't think that is the case and I think that assumption is potentially very offensive to women. A man who is addicted to pornography is a sinner. A woman who is addicted to pornography is considered more than a sinner, she is also going against her natural femininity, and thought of as an evil seductress, out there to destroy righteous men (don't get me started on the catholic interpretation of the story of Adam and Eve). Sorry, I get worked up over it because I just don't believe that men and women are different in their sexual desires and/or in their ability to control them.
Agree with you and here is my black and white rule: if it's not appropriate for children, it's not appropriate for adults either. And also, would I watch or read this if Jesus was right there with me? We are taught to become more like little children in our purity of motives and thoughts. Does this eliminate a lot of movies and literature? Yes.
The good news is there are tons of good things left to enjoy.
I also think our limits are all different and that's OK with me. But knowing myself, I need clear boundaries. My goal is to be receptive to good stuff and to avoid cluttering my mind with useless information. Poor quality literature or TV shows are part of it. I only have about eighty years to live on earth, I don't want to waste it. I mean: there are plenty of other things to do and learn! I may sound ascetic, but we live without a TV. I'd rather go outside when we have free time or do something with my hands. And when I read a book, I analyze it. Two books I've read lately are The Red Tent and Eat, Pray and Love: they are both enjoyable but disappointing. Both take a spiritual yet principle-free approach, and there are a lot of sexual allusions. Actually sex becomes part of their newfound "spiritual" wisdom. OK books otherwise, but not praiseworthy. Satan will not hit us with a hammer, but subtle change in our sensitivity to evil will do the trick. So, yes there are still such thing as black and white, and absolute truths.
Thanks guys. I like your comments. Isa, I think I understand you in regards to literature. I think for me this is a recent development. I'd say even to this point I'm far more lenient with books than with movies. If the stuff in the TTTW would have been a movie, it would have been turned off with the first sex scene. Since it was a book, I read on. So, I see how you may handle those two areas differently, because I have as well. But recently, I have been asking myself if I may need to make some modifications. For me it's not even that I was so horribly offended, but that I just wonder what good it does for me or others, and how I would feel if any of my kid(s) would pick up a book like that and read it. The thought made me really uncomfortable. I also felt awkward when Henry picked up the book asking what I was reading, and randomly opened up, started reading, happening on this nice sex scene between Claire and Gomez, and just looks at me, asking once again what I am reading...it felt wrong...
Now, I like your question about sons/guys being more susceptible etc. I think immorality is wrong, no matter who does it. The standards I try to establish would be the same for all my kids (daughters and sons alike).
However, I do think males and females have some differences, and I would want to accommodate for those (simple example would be not minding my sons to go swimming without a top, but I wouldn't want that for my daughters). I do believe that sexuality is experienced a bit different between males and females. I do believe guys are far more easily visually stimulated than women. That doesn't mean, however, that women won't be or cannot be visually stimulated. But, I do think the pitfalls of immorality can be different for males and females, and at times some things may be more critical to watch out for for one gender than the other. In the end though, I think there are certain boundaries, and areas none of us should cross, regardless of gender, and I think we all are equally to make right choices or not. I don't think it's ever an excuse to say I couldn't help it because I am a guy/girl. But, I do think there are differences between men and women.
As for figuring out what pornography is...I think this is such a tricky thing to figure out, and as you pointed out people have very different views on this. I think I've come to the conclusion that if something is presented with the intent to arouse, I'll consider it pornography. So, if I have a piece of art that deals with the beauty of the naked body, it doesn't have to be pornography, but I guess it could be, especially if looking at it turns me on. I guess for me, the key is to stay away from those things that detract from the true nature and beauty of sexuality, and that arouse inappropriately (I say inappropriately because I think there is appropriate arousal, mostly between husbands and wives...). I don't know if that makes sense, and I'm not suggesting that I have all the answers. It's just something that is on my mind, and something I want to figure out, mainly because I feel so much misery in the world is the result of sexuality gone bad. ;)
This is a reply to both Fran and Marie-Magdeleine.
I'm somewhat dissatisfied with your definition of pornography, although it is the same one Jonni gave me when I asked him about it earlier today. The reason I don't like it is that I don't see anything bad in arousal. In fact, I think it is a part of life and healthy.. and many a marriage in the church has ended unhappily because of it being suppressed.
I think sex is part of life and I am quite frankly appalled by people who suggest we should only read books and watch movies that stay completely clear of sex.
Is an LDS author never allowed to write a book about her sexual life? How about accounts of rape or abuse? Are we, as Mormons, supposed to pretend all of that doesn't exist in marital lives, even in temple marriages? Can we talk about issues surrounding sex, even the ugly ones?
I am aware that we are talking about pornography, not accounts of domestic abuse. But if we say anything that arouses us is pornography, or worse yet, we shouldn't read any books that we wouldn't read to our children, then I honestly think we are drawing the line way too early.
I would not want Fé to read certain accounts in the Bible or the Book of Mormon (an example that comes to mind: women being fed the flesh of their fathers). Does that mean I shouldn't read them? I would not want Fé to know about all the terrible things that exist in this world, but does that mean I should not educate myself about them?
I'm sorry, maybe I'm one of the evil seductresses who is a danger to all righteousness. But I refuse to shut out certain kind of literature (please note that I'm using the word literature and not trash novels for a reason) only because it has sex in it or because it may or may not arouse me.
And I do think men and women should have the same standards. I don't know about other women, but I'm as visually stimulated as I imagine men are. And I love sex.
Sorry if this got too personal, but here you have it. :)
Gosh, I would have loved to argue this at BYU.
ewwww sex! Ok Isa, I think you're misunderstanding me now. My issue is NOT with sex at all. I'm sure we all love it, and I fully agree that sex is a natural and normal part of life, and often times gets so ignored or mistreated at times that it's robbed of all its beauty and instead becomes and obstacle. My point is not to ignore sexuality. I find that just as problematic as I find excessive interaction with sexuality. I think my point is to figure out a healthy balance. I find it extremely crucial to discuss and deal with sexual issues as they arise, especially problematic ones (such as abuse etc.). I don't believe in ignoring or pretending ANYTHING in life and would always prefer to deal with things head-on and just talk them out etc.
So, this is not about repressing sexuality, sexual feelings/thoughts etc. nor is this about suggesting that sexual feelings are wrong/bad or whatever.
However, I do believe that everything has its place and its time. I think the way we have started to treat and deal with sexuality in society now is doing us a great disservice. It is turning something that indeed is beautiful, natural, wonderful and brings two people together in the most marvelous way, into something that it isn't.
I was thinking about your comments earlier on about "beautiful love scenes". I believe in beautiful love scenes. They are usually between my husband and me, and I would imagine other people have similar experiences, but alas, I don't want to see them! Would you want anyone to see you and Jonni having sex? Probably not (though I may be wrong :). So, if this is not something you'd want to share, why would it be ok if some actors act it out (and in that case it's not even real, and therefore a meaningless abuse of something unique and special).
My issue is with how we treat something that should be far more than it's made to be today.I do not like it being turned into something shameful and disgusting nor do I want it turned into something anyone does all the time with everyone and it's no big deal and it means nothing anyway etc. etc. I think today sex has been greatly degraded into something selfish and lusty, rather than something loving, fun and beautiful.
My other issues with what to read/watch etc. are simply about what to fill my mind with, what precautions to establish for my family and how to deal with sexuality in general.
Arousal is natural, and necessary and great at the right time, in the right way and with the right person.
The problem is how people deal with arousal. When you get aroused all the time there are several potential problems. If you haven't learned to deal with the urges you may head down a path you don't want to go down - often times things start with masturbation and then may lead to premarital sex, or pornography addiction etc. etc. There are lots of sad things you can get involved in just because you haven't learned to handle your arousal. However, one smart way to handle arousal is to just avoid unnecessary arousal. Sometimes you can't avoid it, and sometimes it's maybe important to deal with a certain issue and it may happen to have a sexual impact on you, but you just have to deal with it...
But, most of the time, why even go there when it just makes things unnecessarily difficult? Of course, if someone has no problems to control is his/her urges then maybe there isn't a problem. I would still question the value of reading about other peoples sex experiences all the time, but at times there clearly is value.
But, keep in mind that research shows that viewing sexual things makes you think/want sex more. If I have some very hormonal teenagers who want to not have sex till they are married, I would not want to make life harder by surrounding them with a very sexually charged environment. Of course, I'd hope that they know how to handle themselves, and how to deal with their sexual feelings. I hope I'd be able to teach them that, but there's no need to make it harder.
It's kind of like fasting. There is nothing wrong with eating, but when I'm fasting, I could hang out in the fridge all day, but that doesn't really help me much, though it may not make me eat. But it would most likely distract from my enjoyment of the fast, and my focus on the fast, and instead draw my attention to the food I could be eating, want to eat, will be eating soon...etc.
I want my kids to feel comfortable with their sexuality. I want them to know that we can talk about anything they want to know, and that it's not a bad thing but wonderful, and that it is something worth learning to control and then experience and share with the person you love and are committed to. I would want them to understand how dissatisfying it can be and how sad it will make them if they cannot control themselves and handle sexuality in a selfish and inappropriate matter. And to help them succeed, I'd probably recommend to them to stay away from those things that make it unnecessarily difficult. And that can be really different for everyone (regardless of gender, age, or whatever).
I think I have more to say, but I need to go. ;) Thanks for your comments Isa. I like this discussion. I don't think your a seductress, though your righteousness is clearly in question (just kidding). ;)
Ha ha, okay we are clearly meaning the same thing, just expressing it differently.
Just to clear things up, my comments about suppressing sexual desire, making a taboo out of abuse, etc were directed at Marie-Magdeleine, who says she doesn't read or watch anything that she wouldn't want her children to read or watch.
I very well know that your issue wasn't sex, but pornography. I was just saying that if we draw the line at "what i would want my children to watch" we would be missing out on learning about a whole lot of real issues in this world.
As to the beautiful love scene, let me be clearer: I do not watch people having sex on TV. Once they get naked and once they get going, I fast-forward or turn it off. We don't even have channels, we only watch DVDs. With beautiful love scenes I mean kissing or cuddling or "fading to black" in the gooey, lovey-dovey kind of way. The kind that gives you butterflies and makes you go awwww (and if it arouses one, fine). I do NOT mean sex scenes. And thank you very much, I would not want anyone seeing what I do with the Mr. in the bedroom.
I also understand that you shouldn't go around trying to get aroused all the time. It has its place, obviously. I was just making the point that in terms of defining pornography, I find the arousal argument a little unsatisfactory for the reasons that I stated.
In either case, I still don't know what pornography is. I suppose we may conclude that it means different things to different people, although I see a potential hazard in that (as you've pointed out, too).
In general I believe the problem with pornography is the demeaning of sex and devaluing of love (see also my first comment). Some things might not even have sex in it and be that.
Also, violence on TV is at least as problematic, and I'm the first to admit that I'm usually much more offended by people beating each other up than by people making love. Jonni can watch the beatings, I can't. Slumdog Millionaire was too much for me.
Now again with the media argument, I have to disagree somewhat. I can watch Slumdog Millionaire over and over again, and I won't start beating on street kids. Obviously, the media argument only works if the media in question portrays the act in question (be it demeaning sex or killing somebody) as desirable. And obviously those are shows we shouldn't watch or books we shouldn't read. Not even me, the Lorelei of Düsseldorf...
yeah, it sounds like we are pretty much agreeing, just saying it differently.
However, if you doubt the media's ability to influence, I can recommend some research based books. While I agree with you that we may watch something violent and then not act like-wise, they have actually done studies to see if children will copy violent behavior (and they do). They have also done studies that show how we won't necessarily copy violent behavior but do slowly become desensitized.
I guess the bottom line, and my whole point to begin with is that all these things (violence, sex, etc.) need to be thought through and handled with care. A head in the sand approach is not the solution, but certainly discussing and thinking about things, trying to figure out what is/isn't appropriate, why and when etc. I think are very important things. Therefore, I'm glad we are having this discussion.
I think we are on the same page for the most part. I think Marie is as well. I know she has books dealing with sexuality, so...I assume that she didn't mean not reading or dealing with anything adult-material if it's written/presented in an appropriate matter. After all, we are all Europeans here.
There are many books I have put down because they were too sexual. There are many authors that I won't read anymore because, after reading a couple of their books, I regret that sexual "trash" that I allowed to get in my mind, so I just decided to stop reading books by those authors.
I think it's good for adults to read over For the Strength of Youth pamphlet because it tells us to be careful with our choice of books, movies, and music. I also find myself turning the radio station when I hear a song that's too sensual.
I don't know what to say any more.. except this: maybe a visit to the bishop's office is in order since I am so much less righteous than all of you.
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